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Author | Topic: Tribute Thread For the Recently Raptured Faith | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Faith writes: The point is though that it was an inspired myth and it doesn't have to be historically true for to find truth in it. It is similar to a metaphor that way. As Lewis it is : "at its best, a real though unfocused gleam of divine truth falling on human imagination" Progressive revelation simply means that more and more knowledge of God and His plan of redemption unfolds as the Bible follows the historical events from the beginning to the present. It does not imply that it moves from myth to truth. Edited by GDR, : No reason given.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1
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Faith writes: I get so worn out from being accused of evils that are so far from anything I've thought or done in my life. It's exhausting, it's depressing. I don't even know how anyone is capable of thinking such things. Hi Faith. Can I suggest to you that nobody here would actually think that you have done any of the evils talked about here, but can't you see how others with your method of understanding scripture could? I suggest too that it can also lead to the mindset that the first thing to do when there is evil somewhere in the world is to go and drop bombs on it.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Faith writes: I'm not attacking Calvinism. I am simply saying is that IMHO your method of understanding Scripture leads to a misunderstanding of God. The issue isn't completely settled within Calvinist ranks anyway. No you may not suggest it. The strange things you all impute to Calvinism are accusatory, unjustified, unfair and just plain crazy. Also, isn't it possible to not agree 100% with any particular brand of Christianity. I'm an Anglican but there are a number of issues about which I differ with some of my church leaders, and with others in my congregation. Do you really have to believe all of what you understand Calvinist doctrine to be?He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1
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Phat writes:
Hi Phat Faith says the same sort of thing and uses it to confirm her particular theology. I have had occasional experiences of what I am convinced were of God in my life. I would say that it is affirming of my theistic beliefs but it certainly wouldn't use it to affirm my theological beliefs. Granted I can admit that my experiences may have been perceived incorrectly...but they nevertheless happened. I had enough of them to validate my confirmed biases. I suggest that God can use anyone He chooses, from Faith to Tangle. He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1
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I might as well add my two cents worth. Firstly I suggest we have to read it in the context of the whole New Testament and it just doesn’t fit with what Jesus taught and how He lived. Nor is it consistent with the message in the Epistles. What would Jesus Do?
My first thought would be that they are talking about them being dead to the church or dead to God. However it does talk about burying them so as that it is pretty clea, and although I still see that as a possibility I think it is unlikely.As we all agree, the writer of Acts also compiled the Gospel of Luke. He is using written documents or material from the oral tradition in order to provide an accurate account. He says this: quote:He is compiling things several years later, and we know that the Jews of the day used hyperbole to make a point. The Jews at the time were clear, as some cultures still are today, that blaspheme is punishable by death. We can see that in Saul’s part in the stoning to death of Stephen. It is also the main charge against Jesus that resulted in His crucifixion. This would have been considered as a very serious charge against Ananias and Sapphira, which deserved death. These people still saw themselves as Jewish, as we know this was the group that still believed that followers of the Jesus that were not Jewish should be circumcised. They hadn’t given up on the Jewish laws at this point. They would have believed that they deserved death and so they carried out the execution believing that this was God’s will. This would likely quickly have become an act of God that killed them, and that is how it wound up being recorded in Acts.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Faith writes:
You say we should simply read the Bible as written but when we do that and find contradictions we should not read it as written but leave them unresolved.
The Bible accounts present themselves as simple factual accounts of real events. "Bible believers" simply believe those accounts as written, trusting the writers' honesty and trusting the Church's teaching that the Bible is God's word. We want as much background information as we can get about all of it, but only in order to put the accounts into historical context, not to question those accounts. Where there are seeming discrepancies we either see how they can be reconciled or we leave them to be resolved at some later time.Faith writes: May I humbly suggest that your way of understanding scripture prevents you from getting out of it what we should. You wind up with a god that is capable of tremendous evil and of tremendous good. You are able to create any kind of god that you like. Again, it is Christianity and not Bibleianity. When we use Jesus, the Word incarnate as a guide you get a very different model of the nature and purpose of God than if you worship an inerrant Bible. This is the way the Bible should be read, and this is the only way anyone can get out of it what is there to get.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Faith writes: I know you can't see this Faith, but you are imposing your opinions on the Bible. It is your opinion that the Bible is inerrant and you use that opinion to understand scripture. It is you who are doing what you accuse me of doing. It is only when you leave it to speak for itself and don't impose your own opinions on it that you have any chance of understanding it. I understand scripture based on the opinion that the Bible is correct when it says that it is Jesus that is the Word of God. The bible says that the Word was made flesh not a book. Therefore I understand scripture by reading it through the lens of the teachings of Jesus.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Percy writes:
Luke's claim was that he was writing an accurate or orderly account. Whether it is accurate or not is a separate issue.
I agree except about Luke producing an accurate account. Percy writes:
It said they lied to the Holy Spirit which would be considered blasphemy.
Even if the story of Ananias and Sapphira were true, they didn't commit blasphemy.Percy writes: The apostles
Your use of pronouns makes it unclear who you're talking about. Is "they" Ananias and Sapphira, or is it Paul and the other apostles?Percy writes: You could be right about it being apocryphal. I'm inclined to think that it happened. My thought isn't that they were executed and the story evolved from there, but that the apostles claimed it to be God's will that they be executed, and so it isn't that great a stretch to see it evolving to the idea that God killed them. So I feel that part of my interpretation of what you mean is guesswork, but you seem to be saying that someone killed Ananias and Sapphira, and that the story evolved over time to become that God had killed them. Naturally I believe you're overthinking this. In my view the story is apocryphal rather than relating an actual event.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Percy writes: I know, but I don't find it that surprising. We see in Acts 1 that the first apostles were still thinking that now that Jesus is back that he would lead a revolution to get rid of the Romans. As we can see all through the Gospels these guys were very slow to understand that a revolution was to be fought with entirely different weapons that what they envisioned. As I said earlier this still around the time that Saul was involved in the stoning of Stephen. The apostles murdered a married couple? Don't forget, the culture at the time wasn't that much different than what we can see in the ISIS today. However when it comes to revolution Jesus taught that the Romans simply embodied the real enemy, and that the real enemy behind it all is evil and the weapon against evil is what Paul writes about in Ephesians 6 quote: Percy writes: Agreed Well, true or not, whatever really happened, the story paints a horrible and murderous picture of the early church.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Faith writes: I could say simply that it is raining cats and digs. The simple explanation isn't always the right one. I replied to Percy a little earlier in the thread about this. I thought you merely chose to base your Christian beliefs on what you think the Bible says about Jesus as The Word of God. But there's a lot more you change to suit yourself than that, isn't there? The passage says clearly that Ananias and Sapphira simply fell down and died, nobody killed them.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Sorry to be so slow. Been out of town without a computer.
Percy writes: Sure I find it a troublesome passage but if we look at the culture of the time it isn't completely surprising. As we can see in the OT the idea that they would be executed is consistent with the Jewish culture of the day. As we can also see in Acts 1 the first Jesus followers in some cases still expected Jesus to overthrow the Romans militarily. That is what they believed a messiah was supposed to do. At that point in the very early church they had not grasped the idea that the weapon to be used in defeating the Romans was love. (In essence the message wasn't that it was the Romans that were the enemy but evil itself, but that Rome embodied that evil.) They were still thinking that if they appeased God that He would lead them in overthrowing their enemies. As we read further on in Acts however we can see that the Jesus' message did fairly quickly become the norm.
You don't find it surprising that the followers of Jesus murdered a married couple? I think most people, believers and non-believers alike, would think your analysis has gone off the deep end. Doesn't it make much, much more sense that the story was apocryphal and intended to serve as an object lesson about the importance of sharing the gifts of your life with the church?Percy writes: Well, true or not, whatever really happened, the story paints a horrible and murderous picture of the early church.GDR writes: AgreedPercy writes: There were differences in the early church as their thinking transitioned from an eye for an eye mentality to what Jesus taught. Look at the disagreement that Paul had with Peter. It took time for things to get sorted out. If it was necessary to be a Christian to believe that every Christian, early or not, had to refrain from evil then I'd be in trouble. I belong to a religion that is aligned with the likes of the leaders of the crusades as well as televangelists, and for that matter a church that tolerates me. I don't see how you can feel that way and still be a member of such a religion.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Percy writes: I'm sorry, I can't really reply to the other things you explain. I can't get past the idea that apostles murdering church members (or anyone) is merely "troublesome." Well let's go with horrifically troublesome. My point would be that it is part of the Jewish culture at the the time. Their understanding of Jesus' message didn't catch on over night. What would be beyond troublesome is if I had to believe as Faith does that God actually did it.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Percy writes: Sure, that could be the case. Actually the biggest argument against my suggestion is that execution wouldn't normally have been done on the spot. They would most likely have been taken to some form of hearing first which would favour your suggestion. How about this? Ananias "gave up the ghost" and Sapphira "yielded up the ghost" in the KJV, so couldn't they be said to have done it to themselves once they realized what they had done? Another possibility is that the apostles considered them dead to the Lord and the story was embellished to include the burial. The basic point though is that the God we see whose Word or nature is perfectly embodied by Jesus wouldn't have done nor commanded their death, whatever actually happened.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
CS writes:
Religion can always be misused as a road to power and influence over others. There has also been a huge amount of good done by Christians. Neither confirm nor deny the validity of the life death and resurrection of Jesus. And when, precisely, did it catch on with newly minted Christians? By the inquisition? Or a bit later?He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
ringo writes: I agree. The thing is though that in reading it that way we then have to reject the idea that Jesus perfectly embodied the nature of God. A plain reading of the teaching of what we have from Jesus throughout the Gospels, and the Epistles for that matter, show that such an action would be completely foreign to the nature of God. With this in mind we have to look for another explanation rather that the plain reading. To me, it seems pretty clear from a plain reading of the text that God killed them.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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