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Author Topic:   Tribute Thread For the Recently Raptured Faith
Percy
Member
Posts: 17861
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 781 of 791 (842841)
11-08-2018 8:36 PM
Reply to: Message 780 by Faith
11-08-2018 7:52 PM


Re: Giving It All Up and Urging Everyone To Do Likewise
Faith writes:

No, the Protestant Reformers traced their conclusions back to the beginning too.

What is the point of repeating the same bald unsupported assertion you've made before. I already showed that Martin Luther didn't advocate inerrancy in Message 154 of the Bible Inerrancy stands against all objections thread:

quote:
If you think Biblical inerrancy was a tenet of any significant sects of Christianity then tell us about them. Even Martin Luther argued that Bible passages must be tested to determine whether they were the true word of God, see, for example, Reformers Did Not Affirm Inerrancy.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 780 by Faith, posted 11-08-2018 7:52 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 783 by Faith, posted 11-09-2018 3:31 PM Percy has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 30022
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 782 of 791 (842871)
11-09-2018 3:30 PM
Reply to: Message 780 by Faith
11-08-2018 7:52 PM


Re: Giving It All Up and Urging Everyone To Do Likewise
...

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 780 by Faith, posted 11-08-2018 7:52 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 30022
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 783 of 791 (842872)
11-09-2018 3:31 PM
Reply to: Message 781 by Percy
11-08-2018 8:36 PM


Re: Giving It All Up and Urging Everyone To Do Likewise
And I answered you that what Luther meant is disputed.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 781 by Percy, posted 11-08-2018 8:36 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 784 by Percy, posted 11-09-2018 6:20 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 17861
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 784 of 791 (842910)
11-09-2018 6:20 PM
Reply to: Message 783 by Faith
11-09-2018 3:31 PM


Re: Giving It All Up and Urging Everyone To Do Likewise
Faith writes:

And I answered you that what Luther meant is disputed.

It was a bald, unsupported assertion when you first said this, as I pointed out at the time, and it still is. What you actually offered at the time was excuses, incorrect guesses, and pigheadedness: the computer is slow, your eyes give out rapidly, Luther must have been talking about Apocrypha (he wasn't), you would only offer assertions, and you were sticking by the Chicago Statement.

If you have an actual rebuttal that you'd like to offer about Martin Luther having argued that Bible passages must be tested to determine whether they were the word of God (as argued in, for example, Reformers Did Not Affirm Inerrancy) then go ahead. But if you still have nothing of substance to say then you shouldn't post. Unsupported affirmations are not evidence.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 783 by Faith, posted 11-09-2018 3:31 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
GDR
Member
Posts: 4526
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 785 of 791 (843150)
11-13-2018 4:27 PM
Reply to: Message 766 by Percy
11-05-2018 10:49 AM


Re: Giving It All Up and Urging Everyone To Do Likewise
Sorry to be so slow. Been out of town without a computer.
Percy writes:

You don't find it surprising that the followers of Jesus murdered a married couple? I think most people, believers and non-believers alike, would think your analysis has gone off the deep end. Doesn't it make much, much more sense that the story was apocryphal and intended to serve as an object lesson about the importance of sharing the gifts of your life with the church?

Sure I find it a troublesome passage but if we look at the culture of the time it isn't completely surprising. As we can see in the OT the idea that they would be executed is consistent with the Jewish culture of the day. As we can also see in Acts 1 the first Jesus followers in some cases still expected Jesus to overthrow the Romans militarily. That is what they believed a messiah was supposed to do. At that point in the very early church they had not grasped the idea that the weapon to be used in defeating the Romans was love. (In essence the message wasn't that it was the Romans that were the enemy but evil itself, but that Rome embodied that evil.) They were still thinking that if they appeased God that He would lead them in overthrowing their enemies. As we read further on in Acts however we can see that the Jesus' message did fairly quickly become the norm.
Percy writes:

Well, true or not, whatever really happened, the story paints a horrible and murderous picture of the early church.

GDR writes:

Agreed

Percy writes:

I don't see how you can feel that way and still be a member of such a religion.

There were differences in the early church as their thinking transitioned from an eye for an eye mentality to what Jesus taught. Look at the disagreement that Paul had with Peter. It took time for things to get sorted out. If it was necessary to be a Christian to believe that every Christian, early or not, had to refrain from evil then I'd be in trouble. I belong to a religion that is aligned with the likes of the leaders of the crusades as well as televangelists, and for that matter a church that tolerates me.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 766 by Percy, posted 11-05-2018 10:49 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 786 by Percy, posted 11-13-2018 6:48 PM GDR has responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 17861
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 786 of 791 (843164)
11-13-2018 6:48 PM
Reply to: Message 785 by GDR
11-13-2018 4:27 PM


Re: Giving It All Up and Urging Everyone To Do Likewise
GDR writes:

Percy writes:

You don't find it surprising that the followers of Jesus murdered a married couple? I think most people, believers and non-believers alike, would think your analysis has gone off the deep end. Doesn't it make much, much more sense that the story was apocryphal and intended to serve as an object lesson about the importance of sharing the gifts of your life with the church?

Sure I find it a troublesome passage...

I'm sorry, I can't really reply to the other things you explain. I can't get past the idea that apostles murdering church members (or anyone) is merely "troublesome."

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 785 by GDR, posted 11-13-2018 4:27 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 787 by GDR, posted 11-13-2018 7:52 PM Percy has responded

    
GDR
Member
Posts: 4526
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 787 of 791 (843167)
11-13-2018 7:52 PM
Reply to: Message 786 by Percy
11-13-2018 6:48 PM


Re: Giving It All Up and Urging Everyone To Do Likewise
Percy writes:

I'm sorry, I can't really reply to the other things you explain. I can't get past the idea that apostles murdering church members (or anyone) is merely "troublesome."

Well let's go with horrifically troublesome. My point would be that it is part of the Jewish culture at the the time. Their understanding of Jesus' message didn't catch on over night. What would be beyond troublesome is if I had to believe as Faith does that God actually did it.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 786 by Percy, posted 11-13-2018 6:48 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 788 by Percy, posted 11-13-2018 8:39 PM GDR has responded
 Message 790 by Capt Stormfield, posted 11-13-2018 9:15 PM GDR has not yet responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 17861
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 788 of 791 (843170)
11-13-2018 8:39 PM
Reply to: Message 787 by GDR
11-13-2018 7:52 PM


Re: Giving It All Up and Urging Everyone To Do Likewise
How about this? Ananias "gave up the ghost" and Sapphira "yielded up the ghost" in the KJV, so couldn't they be said to have done it to themselves once they realized what they had done?

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 787 by GDR, posted 11-13-2018 7:52 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 789 by GDR, posted 11-13-2018 9:04 PM Percy has not yet responded

    
GDR
Member
Posts: 4526
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 789 of 791 (843171)
11-13-2018 9:04 PM
Reply to: Message 788 by Percy
11-13-2018 8:39 PM


Re: Giving It All Up and Urging Everyone To Do Likewise
Percy writes:

How about this? Ananias "gave up the ghost" and Sapphira "yielded up the ghost" in the KJV, so couldn't they be said to have done it to themselves once they realized what they had done?

Sure, that could be the case. Actually the biggest argument against my suggestion is that execution wouldn't normally have been done on the spot. They would most likely have been taken to some form of hearing first which would favour your suggestion.

Another possibility is that the apostles considered them dead to the Lord and the story was embellished to include the burial.

The basic point though is that the God we see whose Word or nature is perfectly embodied by Jesus wouldn't have done nor commanded their death, whatever actually happened.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 788 by Percy, posted 11-13-2018 8:39 PM Percy has not yet responded

    
Capt Stormfield
Member
Posts: 389
From: Vancouver Island
Joined: 01-17-2009
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 790 of 791 (843172)
11-13-2018 9:15 PM
Reply to: Message 787 by GDR
11-13-2018 7:52 PM


Re: Giving It All Up and Urging Everyone To Do Likewise
Their understanding of Jesus' message didn't catch on over night.

And when, precisely, did it catch on with newly minted Christians? By the inquisition? Or a bit later?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 787 by GDR, posted 11-13-2018 7:52 PM GDR has not yet responded

  
Capt Stormfield
Member
Posts: 389
From: Vancouver Island
Joined: 01-17-2009
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 791 of 791 (843173)
11-13-2018 9:21 PM
Reply to: Message 766 by Percy
11-05-2018 10:49 AM


Re: Giving It All Up and Urging Everyone To Do Likewise
You don't find it surprising that the followers of Jesus murdered a married couple? I think most people, believers and non-believers alike, would think your analysis has gone off the deep end. Doesn't it make much, much more sense that the story was apocryphal and intended to serve as an object lesson about the importance of sharing the gifts of your life with the church?

Que? What on earth, or more specifically in the history of Christianity, would make this seem even slightly unusual?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 766 by Percy, posted 11-05-2018 10:49 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

  
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