Tribute Thread For the Recently Raptured Faith

Well we don't really know, however the Gospels were all written by Jews as far as we know. If not then the material that they used to write the Gospels came from Jews. My point was that the Gospels as they are written are not something that a 1st century Jew would make up if they were trying to concoct a new movement. The question is not whether they lied or not, but whether they got it wrong or not.As I said before, there is no motivation to keep the Jesus message going. No Jew believed that the messiah would die on a cross. Paul had to keep on repeating that he wasn't ashamed to preach a crucified messiah, as it was such a shameful death. It certainly didn't improve the quality of life for any of them and just the opposite was the case.

You just keep saying it makes sense, (which it doesn't), and don't respond to the points that I made as to why it doesn't make sense. Essentially you use the only argument against it is by saying you know it couldn't happen. I have explained that one. I'll do it again.
This is from Mark 13.

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1 As Jesus was leaving the temple, one of his disciples said to him, Look, Teacher! What massive stones! What magnificent buildings!
2 Do you see all these great buildings? replied Jesus. Not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.
3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter, James, John and Andrew asked him privately,

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OK. Let’s go through this. First off Jesus talks about the destruction of the temple which is strictly an act of destruction with no reason to connect it with any end times theology.

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4 Tell us, when will these things happen? And what will be the sign that they are all about to be fulfilled?
5 Jesus said to them: Watch out that no one deceives you.
6 Many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am he,’ and will deceive many.
7 When you hear of wars and rumors of wars, do not be alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come.
8 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be earthquakes in various places, and famines. These are the beginning of birth pains.

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He is saying here that there will be more men making messianic claims that will come and lead them in wars but telling them to not be deceived. He is saying however that this isn’t the end, presumably meaning the end of time.

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9 You must be on your guard. You will be handed over to the local councils and flogged in the synagogues. On account of me you will stand before governors and kings as witnesses to them.
10 And the gospel must first be preached to all nations.
11 Whenever you are arrested and brought to trial, do not worry beforehand about what to say. Just say whatever is given you at the time, for it is not you speaking, but the Holy Spirit.
12 Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child. Children will rebel against their parents and have them put to death.
13 Everyone will hate you because of me, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved.

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Here Jesus is saying that they will be severely persecuted for their message, that it will cause division in families, (much as we still see today in other religions in some parts of the world), but saying that ultimately they will receive justice for standing firm. As an aside at this point I’d just add that it shows once again it makes no sense to think that they would follow a crucified messiah into a life like that.

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14 When you see ‘the abomination that causes desolation’standing where it does not belonglet the reader understandthen let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.
15Let no one on the housetop go down or enter the house to take anything out.
16 Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak.
17 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers!
18 Pray that this will not take place in winter,
19 because those will be days of distress unequaled from the beginning, when God created the world, until nowand never to be equaled again.
20 If the Lord had not cut short those days, no one would survive. But for the sake of the elect, whom he has chosen, he has shortened them.

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The abomination that causes desolation is a reference back to Daniel 11 vs 31. It says this: 31 His (the very human king of the north) armed forces will rise up to desecrate the temple fortress and will abolish the daily sacrifice. Then they will set up the abomination that causes desolation.This obviously can’t be about the end of time as what on earth would be the point of hiding out in the mountains? Why hope that it isn’t in winter? (Which obviously also makes clear that Jesus doesn’t know a specific time that this will take place.)

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21 At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘Look, there he is!’ do not believe it.
22 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.
23 So be on your guard; I have told you everything ahead of time.

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Once again Jesus is warning them not to be taken in by false messiahs that will lead them into a war that will end in destruction.

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24 But in those days, following that distress, ‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light;
25 the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’
26 At that time people will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory.
27 And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens.

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Jesus often referred to Himself as the Son of Man. He says things like He says things like the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath in Matthew 12. He goes around forgiving sins. He is making a messianic claim. The point here though is that He is referring to Daniel 7. This is from Daniel 7.

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13 In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

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When Mark talks about Jesus saying that He will be coming on the clouds He is NOT talking about end times NOT Him returning to Earth. He is talking about coming to the Father, the Ancient of Days, and being given everlasting dominion over the kingdom. This kingdom will be a kingdom that won’t be bounded by physical borders, and is eternal.

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28 Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near.
29 Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that it is near, right at the door.
30Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.
31Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.
32 But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

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First off Jesus is saying that this time of war and desolation will end and things will get better again. Jesus knowing the revolutionary nature of the culture is saying that this time of war and desolation is coming sooner rather than later and even within that generation. And He was right when the revolt led primarily by Simon bar Giora was crushed in 70AD with the destruction of the Temple and much of Jerusalem.

That misses the point. The point was that Jesus didn't believe in an inerrantist reading of the Scriptures either. I agree that is a good point. As I have said before I am convinced of the truth of the story of the resurrection of Jesus. As a theist that frankly isn't that great a stretch. If one starts from an atheistic position then obviously it will simply sound nonsensical. (IMHO what really is a stretch is believing that we mindless evolved from mindless particles and mindless processes, but that is a different issue.)If I am correct in believing that the Father resurrected Jesus then I see it as a vindication of Christ's life and message. As a result I read the Bible in order to understand His life and message, and then I also look at how that message fits with my life and the world I live in. I find that it makes sense of my life and the world that no other religion or philosophy, including atheism does.

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2 Thessalonians 1:4-12 writes:
...we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure: Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer: Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed ) in that day. Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power: That the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and ye in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

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This quote doesn't give me as much of a problem as you might think. I'll just throw in this quote again by CS Lewis.

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There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, "Thy will be done," and those to whom God says, in the end, "Thy will be done." All that are in Hell, choose it. Without that self-choice there could be no Hell.

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Lewis is clear in many of his books such as "The Great Divorce" that Hell is populated by those that are unable to give up a life that is based on self love, even at the expense of others. Can you imagine what this world would be like if all of humanity was based on the principle of selfish love, where people only cared for their neighbour when it somehow benefited themselves. IMHO what Paul writes here understates what that world would look be like.

Not at all. That is like saying that because that because some Canadians have committed terrible acts, or because we have to a large degree moved away from organized religion, and that we aren't all that keen on the way the excited States conducts trade policy that all Canadians, infants and all, should be bombed into oblivion. Also, I see that the way we live our lives is a sympton of where our heart is. It is all about where our hearts are. Someone who was raised in abusive homes, has mental health issues etc may actually have hearts that hate what the do and actually do desire goodness but aren't able to live it out in their lives. I have to admit that my approach to that is very simple. I believe that ultimately under a loving God there will be perfect justice.

But it did come quite obviously in 70AD. I'm not trusting any particular theologian in this case. I'm simply reading what the Scriptures tell us and I laid it all out for you.

You can't have even read what I wrote. This is simply a knee jerk reaction to what you think I would say. In this case I read it as to what it PLAINLY SAID and what it referred to. If you had read what I said you would know that I didn't see this as Jesus knowing it supernaturally but simply knowing that the destruction of the Temple would be as a result of what the Romans would do in putting down a military rebellion. The fact that a wall is left standing is hardly an issue.You quoted Matthew 24 which says essentially the same thing that it says in Mark 13 which I went through in detail. You obviously didn't read what I wrote in the post what you are supposedly replying to.

You used this quote. "There was no abomination of desolation involved in 70 AD." What is that from. Aside from that it is wrong in terms of what was meant by the phrase as taken from Daniel 7.

I apologize. I thought you were replying to me.

Which verse or verses?

Then why not say why what I said is wrong instead of just rejecting it out of hand. Lewis did say that but also went on to say this.

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And unless later copyists were equally honest they would never have preserved the (apparently) mistaken prediction about this generation after the passage of time had shown the (apparent) mistake. This passage (Mark 13:30-32) and the cry Why hast thou forsaken me? (Mark 15:34) together make up the strongest proof that the New Testament is historically reliable. The evangelists have the first great characteristic of honest witnesses: they mention facts which are, at first sight, damaging to their main contention.

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Firstly Lewis as a Christian was primarily a Christian philosopher and not a theologian as he often pointed out. Yes I convinced that he got this wrong. Since 1960 when Lewis wrote that there has been considerable advancement in our ability to understand and translate the ancient languages. It has been particularly helpful to have the dead sea scrolls. Modern NT scholars such as N T Wright have understood it to be about the destruction of the Temple and the sacking of Jerusalem.It is also unclear as to when the Gospels were written and it is possible that they were written after 70AD but I doubt that Mark was that late. However I did give a verse by verse breakdown of how those passages were a political statement being made to the revolutionaries and the zealots of His day.

This is my quote from Daniel 7.

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13 In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

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I did quote this from Daniel 11:

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31 His (the very human king of the north) armed forces will rise up to desecrate the temple fortress and will abolish the daily sacrifice. Then they will set up the abomination that causes desolation.

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You said: Is the Daniel 11 quote what you were referring to?

It is a combination of two things. The first is a warning that the revolution will lead to destruction and despair and and in regards to that he uses typical hyperbole with the the darkened sun, stars falling etc, in reference to verses in Isaiah 13. He then is saying that with that happening then they will see the Son of Man coming to the Father, (the Ancient of Days) with the establishment of the Kingdom as talked about in Daniel 7.

OK I have some time again so I'll start with this. A couple of things on this that suggest that you're wrong. Firstly Jesus did not talk about end times theology as much as many people who believe like Faith does would think. His message was very much about not trying to defeat the Romans by having a military revolution. He is saying that when you go that route, which looked very likely that they would, that the Romans would do what they always do and part of that would be the destruction of the Temple. I'm not saying however, that He knew this supernaturally. This was His view of the political climate at the time.Secondly, if it was being written after 70AD then why would they include the part of about one stone not left on another. As has been pointed out, the western wall still stands. Certainly, if it was a post 70AD writing that wouldn't be there.Also, as I pointed out earlier why would Jesus tell them to head for the hills if it is the end of the world. It is pretty obvious that He is talking about an earthly battle. Why on Earth would they do that. The Gospels point out again and again the the disciples were still looking for Earthly power over their enemies. We can even see in the first chapter of Acts that they were still thinking that way. That was what they expected a messiah to do. It took time for the early followers to let the message sink in that this wasn't at all what Jesus was about.Nobody after the Maccabees were put to death did anyone suggest that Judas Maccabees was resurrected even though he talked about resurrection. Everyone assumed that it would be resurrection at the end of time. Nobody suggested that Simon bar Gioria was resurrected in 70 AD. Nobody suggested that Simon bar Kokhba was resurrected in 135 AD. All of these guys led revolts that had varying degrees of military success and were put to death by the Romans. They were simply regarded as failed messiahs and then people looked for another messiah to lead them. (The idea pretty much dies out after 135 AD however.)The idea of promoting a resurrected Jesus wasn't a route to power. It didn't gain them anything materially and it actually meant being isolated from much of their culture, it required them to give up on material things, and it put their life in danger. There is no motivation for them to do what you are suggesting. They obviously believed it. You can argue that they got it wrong, but frankly it would take very firm evidence for them to go down the road that they did.I would add that it also would take very firm evidence for Paul to completely turn around the way he did regardless of what happened on the road to Damascus.

You started the quote that you used at verse 29. You have to look at it all in context.

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1 Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. 2 Do you see all these things? he asked. Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down. 3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. Tell us, they said, when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age? 4 Jesus answered: Watch out that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many. 6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of birth pains. 9 Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come. 15 So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’spoken of through the prophet Daniellet the reader understand 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house. 18 Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. 19 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until nowand never to be equaled again. 22 If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23 At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you ahead of time. 26 So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28 Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather. 29 Immediately after the distress of those days ‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’ 30 Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. 32 Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33 Even so, when you see all these things, you know that itis near, right at the door. 34 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

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If this is about Jesus coming to Earth and bringing about the end of time then why would he tell people to hide out in the mountains, not return for their cloak, hope that it not happen in winter, not to take time to gather their possessions etc.? All of these only make sense if He is talking about a very earthly war.As far as Jesus coming is concerned He is obviously referring to Daniel 7 where one "like a Son of Man' comes on the cloud to the "Ancient of Days" He doesn't use the term "messiah" but "son of man" so that the Jews who were His audience would understand the reference. When the destruction happened then in a sense it vindicated Jesus by showing Him to be right and so they would understand that He was the fulfillment of the Daniel 7 prophesy. Nobody has their theology 100% correct including me. We all have to work things out for ourselves. My favourite NT scholar is NT Wright who has often said in lectures that about 1/3 of what he says is wrong, the problem being that he doesn't know which 1/3 it is. It isn't that the Gospels were written decades later but were "compiled" from the original sources decades later.I'd be interested in knowing what you think the political motivation would be. It would be like raising a following in 1942 in Holland suggesting that the best way to defeat the Nazis would be to love them, turn the other cheek, invite them into your homes, etc. Not really a good political move.