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Author | Topic: Tribute Thread For the Recently Raptured Faith | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.2
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Percy writes: Well we don't really know, however the Gospels were all written by Jews as far as we know. If not then the material that they used to write the Gospels came from Jews.
Probably true. The Christian movement may have begun with Jews, but the bulk of new Christians, particularly by the time the gospels were written, were probably not converted Jews.Percy writes: My point was that the Gospels as they are written are not something that a 1st century Jew would make up if they were trying to concoct a new movement. The question is not whether they lied or not, but whether they got it wrong or not. Thank goodness we know that no one back then ever lied or was mistaken or made things up, and that there were no mythmaking dynamics. They could only have been writing about actual historical events. As I said before, there is no motivation to keep the Jesus message going. No Jew believed that the messiah would die on a cross. Paul had to keep on repeating that he wasn't ashamed to preach a crucified messiah, as it was such a shameful death. It certainly didn't improve the quality of life for any of them and just the opposite was the case.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.2
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Tangle writes: You just keep saying it makes sense, (which it doesn't), and don't respond to the points that I made as to why it doesn't make sense. Essentially you use the only argument against it is by saying you know it couldn't happen.
It makes total sense; it may not be what you want to believe and it may not even be true, but it makes total sense. It's just as likely that it was invented ad hoc and grew from there. Either way, the very least likely is that the resurection actually happened - that's magical nonsense spun into political oportunism. Tangle writes: I have explained that one. I'll do it again. You've already admitted that there are chunks of the bible that you can't explain - or explain away. And the major one - the return in the generation of the listeners - is the killer for you and yours. You have to shut your ears to that one.This is from Mark 13. quote:OK. Let’s go through this. First off Jesus talks about the destruction of the temple which is strictly an act of destruction with no reason to connect it with any end times theology. quote: He is saying here that there will be more men making messianic claims that will come and lead them in wars but telling them to not be deceived. He is saying however that this isn’t the end, presumably meaning the end of time.
quote:Here Jesus is saying that they will be severely persecuted for their message, that it will cause division in families, (much as we still see today in other religions in some parts of the world), but saying that ultimately they will receive justice for standing firm. As an aside at this point I’d just add that it shows once again it makes no sense to think that they would follow a crucified messiah into a life like that. quote:The abomination that causes desolation is a reference back to Daniel 11 vs 31. It says this: 31 His (the very human king of the north) armed forces will rise up to desecrate the temple fortress and will abolish the daily sacrifice. Then they will set up the abomination that causes desolation. This obviously can’t be about the end of time as what on earth would be the point of hiding out in the mountains? Why hope that it isn’t in winter? (Which obviously also makes clear that Jesus doesn’t know a specific time that this will take place.)
quote:Once again Jesus is warning them not to be taken in by false messiahs that will lead them into a war that will end in destruction. quote:Jesus often referred to Himself as the Son of Man. He says things like He says things like the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath in Matthew 12. He goes around forgiving sins. He is making a messianic claim. The point here though is that He is referring to Daniel 7. This is from Daniel 7. quote:When Mark talks about Jesus saying that He will be coming on the clouds He is NOT talking about end times NOT Him returning to Earth. He is talking about coming to the Father, the Ancient of Days, and being given everlasting dominion over the kingdom. This kingdom will be a kingdom that won’t be bounded by physical borders, and is eternal. quote:First off Jesus is saying that this time of war and desolation will end and things will get better again. Jesus knowing the revolutionary nature of the culture is saying that this time of war and desolation is coming sooner rather than later and even within that generation. And He was right when the revolt led primarily by Simon bar Giora was crushed in 70AD with the destruction of the Temple and much of Jerusalem. He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.2
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ringo writes: That misses the point. The point was that Jesus didn't believe in an inerrantist reading of the Scriptures either.
And What Jesus told you was not necessarily what Yahweh said either. It was another opinion. ringo writes: I agree that is a good point. As I have said before I am convinced of the truth of the story of the resurrection of Jesus. As a theist that frankly isn't that great a stretch. If one starts from an atheistic position then obviously it will simply sound nonsensical. (IMHO what really is a stretch is believing that we mindless evolved from mindless particles and mindless processes, but that is a different issue.) Nonsense. You can't decide a priori that Jesus was right about everything and everything else must be warped to fit. You have to take what Jesus taught in the context of what He learned. If I am correct in believing that the Father resurrected Jesus then I see it as a vindication of Christ's life and message. As a result I read the Bible in order to understand His life and message, and then I also look at how that message fits with my life and the world I live in. I find that it makes sense of my life and the world that no other religion or philosophy, including atheism does.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.2
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Faith writes: So here's just one New Testament writing among many you can pretend are lies while only your chosen passages are the true ones. Just a reminder that it isn't only in the Old Testament but also in the New Testament that there's a lot said about Him that doesn't square with your image of Him. quote:This quote doesn't give me as much of a problem as you might think. I'll just throw in this quote again by CS Lewis. quote:Lewis is clear in many of his books such as "The Great Divorce" that Hell is populated by those that are unable to give up a life that is based on self love, even at the expense of others. Can you imagine what this world would be like if all of humanity was based on the principle of selfish love, where people only cared for their neighbour when it somehow benefited themselves. IMHO what Paul writes here understates what that world would look be like. He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.2
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Faith writes: Not at all. That is like saying that because that because some Canadians have committed terrible acts, or because we have to a large degree moved away from organized religion, and that we aren't all that keen on the way the excited States conducts trade policy that all Canadians, infants and all, should be bombed into oblivion.
OK so you believe in a Hell of some sort for those who don't live the Christian life as you believe it is supposed to be lived, but the quote is about Jesus' Second Coming "in flaming fire" to take vengeance on those still living who don't know God or obey the gospel. Including those who are persecuting the believers in this case. So you really ought to accept that the judgment of the Amalekites was also just since they had also "troubled" God's people. And the Canaanites also "knew not God" so they too would have deserved their judgment. So there's no basis for the distinction you are making. Faith writes:
Also, I see that the way we live our lives is a sympton of where our heart is. It is all about where our hearts are. Someone who was raised in abusive homes, has mental health issues etc may actually have hearts that hate what the do and actually do desire goodness but aren't able to live it out in their lives. I have to admit that my approach to that is very simple. I believe that ultimately under a loving God there will be perfect justice. OK so you believe in a Hell of some sort for those who don't live the Christian life as you believe it is supposed to be lived..He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
Faith writes: But it did come quite obviously in 70AD.
This is a case of scripture, Jesus Himself in this instance, blurring together two separate prophecies. The abomination of desolation you are talking about was set up in the temple in the time of the Maccabees by Antiochus Epiphanes, whom the Maccabees defeated, rescuing the temple. Since Jesus is now speaking prophetically a few hundred years after that time there is clearly another abomination of desolation yet to come, and so far it has not appeared in world history, so we look forward to it still, which brings us to the end of time.Faith writes: I'm not trusting any particular theologian in this case. I'm simply reading what the Scriptures tell us and I laid it all out for you. But you are certainly trusting the wrong theologians. He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
Tangle writes: You can't have even read what I wrote. This is simply a knee jerk reaction to what you think I would say. In this case I read it as to what it PLAINLY SAID and what it referred to.
Yeh, we can all quote stuff, here's Matthew, all in total context. You have to turn multiple cartwheels to make the plain words into something else.Tangle writes: If you had read what I said you would know that I didn't see this as Jesus knowing it supernaturally but simply knowing that the destruction of the Temple would be as a result of what the Romans would do in putting down a military rebellion. The fact that a wall is left standing is hardly an issue. as an aside, this didn't happen either, the Wailing Wall still stands brick on brick You quoted Matthew 24 which says essentially the same thing that it says in Mark 13 which I went through in detail. You obviously didn't read what I wrote in the post what you are supposedly replying to.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
You used this quote. "There was no abomination of desolation involved in 70 AD." What is that from. Aside from that it is wrong in terms of what was meant by the phrase as taken from Daniel 7.
He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
PaulK writes: I apologize. I thought you were replying to me. The message I was replying to, of course. Message 906He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
PaulK writes: Which verse or verses? In Daniel 7 it refers to Antiochus’ pagan altar in the Temple.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
Tangle writes: Then why not say why what I said is wrong instead of just rejecting it out of hand.
I read it twice. What's more I've read it before. It makes no difference, it still says - in terms - what it says. Even your hero CS Lewis calls it the most embarassing passage of the bible. Tangle writes: Lewis did say that but also went on to say this.
It's absolutely plain what it says and what it means. What's more even those thought so at the time. Your apologetics doesn't change the text or its simple meaning. quote: Firstly Lewis as a Christian was primarily a Christian philosopher and not a theologian as he often pointed out. Yes I convinced that he got this wrong. Since 1960 when Lewis wrote that there has been considerable advancement in our ability to understand and translate the ancient languages. It has been particularly helpful to have the dead sea scrolls. Modern NT scholars such as N T Wright have understood it to be about the destruction of the Temple and the sacking of Jerusalem. It is also unclear as to when the Gospels were written and it is possible that they were written after 70AD but I doubt that Mark was that late. However I did give a verse by verse breakdown of how those passages were a political statement being made to the revolutionaries and the zealots of His day.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
PaulK writes:
This is my quote from Daniel 7. Wherever it appears. You’re the one who specified chapter 7.quote: I did quote this from Daniel 11: quote:You said: PaulK writes: Is the Daniel 11 quote what you were referring to? In Daniel 7 it refers to Antiochus’ pagan altar in the Temple. There was nothing like that in 70AD.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
Straggler writes: So all the talk of abomination, desolation, everlasting dominion, of unequaled distress never to be equaled again, darkened Sun, stars falling from the sky, Angels gathering the elect from the ends of the Earth to the ends of the heavens, Earthquakes, famine....I could go on. All of that is simply referring to the siege of Jerusalem of 70AD according to you? It is a combination of two things. The first is a warning that the revolution will lead to destruction and despair and and in regards to that he uses typical hyperbole with the the darkened sun, stars falling etc, in reference to verses in Isaiah 13. He then is saying that with that happening then they will see the Son of Man coming to the Father, (the Ancient of Days) with the establishment of the Kingdom as talked about in Daniel 7.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
OK I have some time again so I'll start with this.
Percy writes: A couple of things on this that suggest that you're wrong. Firstly Jesus did not talk about end times theology as much as many people who believe like Faith does would think. His message was very much about not trying to defeat the Romans by having a military revolution. He is saying that when you go that route, which looked very likely that they would, that the Romans would do what they always do and part of that would be the destruction of the Temple. I'm not saying however, that He knew this supernaturally. This was His view of the political climate at the time. Jesus's talk of destruction of the temple is very strong evidence that the passage was written after the destruction of the temple. Also (this is more for Faith and her inerrancy stance), his statement that "Not one stone here will be left on another" is erroneous, since many stones were obviously left one upon another, for instance the Wailing Wall that was part of the Second Temple, see Second Temple Archeology for more examples. Secondly, if it was being written after 70AD then why would they include the part of about one stone not left on another. As has been pointed out, the western wall still stands. Certainly, if it was a post 70AD writing that wouldn't be there. Also, as I pointed out earlier why would Jesus tell them to head for the hills if it is the end of the world. It is pretty obvious that He is talking about an earthly battle.
Percy writes: Why on Earth would they do that. The Gospels point out again and again the the disciples were still looking for Earthly power over their enemies. We can even see in the first chapter of Acts that they were still thinking that way. That was what they expected a messiah to do. It took time for the early followers to let the message sink in that this wasn't at all what Jesus was about. Again, how handy to have a martyr, especially one who defeated death, rose to heaven to sit by God. Nobody after the Maccabees were put to death did anyone suggest that Judas Maccabees was resurrected even though he talked about resurrection. Everyone assumed that it would be resurrection at the end of time. Nobody suggested that Simon bar Gioria was resurrected in 70 AD. Nobody suggested that Simon bar Kokhba was resurrected in 135 AD. All of these guys led revolts that had varying degrees of military success and were put to death by the Romans. They were simply regarded as failed messiahs and then people looked for another messiah to lead them. (The idea pretty much dies out after 135 AD however.) The idea of promoting a resurrected Jesus wasn't a route to power. It didn't gain them anything materially and it actually meant being isolated from much of their culture, it required them to give up on material things, and it put their life in danger. There is no motivation for them to do what you are suggesting. They obviously believed it. You can argue that they got it wrong, but frankly it would take very firm evidence for them to go down the road that they did. I would add that it also would take very firm evidence for Paul to completely turn around the way he did regardless of what happened on the road to Damascus.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
Tangle writes: None of that happened either within the generation of those hearing his words or when the Temple fell. Either way, your wrong. You started the quote that you used at verse 29. You have to look at it all in context.
quote:If this is about Jesus coming to Earth and bringing about the end of time then why would he tell people to hide out in the mountains, not return for their cloak, hope that it not happen in winter, not to take time to gather their possessions etc.? All of these only make sense if He is talking about a very earthly war. As far as Jesus coming is concerned He is obviously referring to Daniel 7 where one "like a Son of Man' comes on the cloud to the "Ancient of Days" He doesn't use the term "messiah" but "son of man" so that the Jews who were His audience would understand the reference. When the destruction happened then in a sense it vindicated Jesus by showing Him to be right and so they would understand that He was the fulfillment of the Daniel 7 prophesy.
GDR writes: Firstly Lewis as a Christian was primarily a Christian philosopher and not a theologian as he often pointed out.Tangle writes: Nobody has their theology 100% correct including me. We all have to work things out for ourselves. My favourite NT scholar is NT Wright who has often said in lectures that about 1/3 of what he says is wrong, the problem being that he doesn't know which 1/3 it is.
But he's good enough to quote when it works for you. Tangle writes: It isn't that the Gospels were written decades later but were "compiled" from the original sources decades later. The gospels were written decades after the fact by unknown authors for unknown reasons and edited later by committees for political reasons. They are THE most unreliable source of events that you could imagine. There is no independent corroboration of any of the critical events as you would expect if they actually had happened. The entire story of resurrection is obviously a fabrication invented for political purposes. I'd be interested in knowing what you think the political motivation would be. It would be like raising a following in 1942 in Holland suggesting that the best way to defeat the Nazis would be to love them, turn the other cheek, invite them into your homes, etc. Not really a good political move.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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