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Author Topic:   Discussion With A Conservative Pastor: I CANT & Phat Only..for now
Phat
Member
Posts: 11896
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 1 of 39 (845060)
12-11-2018 4:47 AM


GREAT DEBATE: PHAT & ICANT ONLY
I wanted to start a topic with our resident Pastor ICANT. He has been a Pastor for many years and has conservative yet Biblically sound beliefs regarding GOD, Creator of all seen and unseen, and His Son Jesus Christ. First of all, I want to show public respect for this man, because he has stepped outside of his conservative church environment to talk with the liberal and moderate philosophies of this forum. I confess that I was curious what his church was like and so I found them online. Out of respect for Pastor ICANT, I won't share that information publically as that is up to him---but I DO want to start a conversation with him and allow it to develop before opening it up to responses from the rest of our forum.

Here is how it all started.

quote:
I CANT, I thought I would share with you an exchange that I had with my own Pastor, recently.
He likely thinks much the same way that you do, and I know that his reply will be ridiculed here at EvC, but nobody here is as well known by me as he is, and I value his input.

This is the conversation I had with my Pastor here in Denver:

ME --my faith has been tested lately...I believe, but I don't believe in what people tell me I need to believe in.
I believe that Jesus is Lord, that He is alive today and that He is Gods Son, Creator of all seen and unseen, but I do not believe in a word for word literal Bible...that stuff you guys teach about a literal Genesis and all that...makes no sense logically. I refuse to simply shut my eyes tight and declare that I believe THAT!

PASTOR--That’s your pitfall. The foundation of our faith is in Genesis. If you don’t believe that your foundation is built on sand and your faith will never be stable.

ME--I just have to be honest...I can't believe in something that is not logical.
Ken Ham is not a strong Christian, by the way. The reason I come to bug you is that I believe that you are, but my issue is with God and not humans.(although some humans are willfully ignorant)

PASTOR--You want a creator who does things according to your logic. You fail to realize He is beyond what our brains can fathom.

ME--my intelligence is likely my downfall...I wish I could just have the trusting faith of a child, but I must be honest with myself
and yes you have a point...

PASTOR--Your intelligence? Think about that statement. Your intelligence. It’s minuscule in comparison to an infinite God.

ME--I know. that I DO believe!

PASTOR--You.... you are your own issue. You have to learn the all-important lesson of dying to self.

I CANT writes:

Making the statement "Even if" is questioning God's existence.

The reason that I frame my statements that way is to present my belief the way that many people at EvC would understand. jar taught me the idea that God cannot be proven, thus to frame the issue as a belief against reality is more honest than to declare that what I believe is reality.

ICANT then responded:

How do you half believe? That does not seem logical.
If you want to discuss your pastor's conversation I think it would be better to start a thread with this post you made. Put it under Faith and Belief.
I think you have a problem believing Genesis 1:1.
But if you can't believe Genesis 1:1 you won't believe the rest. But if you believe Genesis 1:1 you will have no problem with the Bible. But if you study the Bible you will find in the translations where man put his stamp on it which resulted in mistranslations of words. But the original autographs contain no errors.

If you believe the Bible teaches the junk that Ken Ham puts forth and all the other YEC'S you are going to have trouble with that as it does not agree with the Bible or reality and what can be observed.
So if you would like to discuss what the Bible actually says start the thread as I suggested.

Great Debate, Please. I want to limit the conversation to myself and ICANT ONLY...for the first 50 or so posts. We can open it up to comments later.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Phat, posted 12-11-2018 11:23 AM Phat has responded

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 12571
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 2 of 39 (845062)
12-11-2018 10:59 AM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread copied here from the Discussion With A Conservative Pastor: I CANT & Phat Only..for now thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.
    
Phat
Member
Posts: 11896
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 3 of 39 (845065)
12-11-2018 11:23 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Phat
12-11-2018 4:47 AM


An Invitation And Request For ICANT

Hello, Pastor. First off, I wanted to start this topic in the Great Debate thread because I wanted an opportunity to talk with you about some questions which I have regarding your view and belief as well as how conservative Christianity in general believes and some of my concerns and questions. This is not so much a debate--I don't want to challenge you except as if I were a member of your flock asking questions to you away from the church environment... as if we were on a fishing trip and had time to talk.

You asked me if I believed Genesis 1:1.

I believe that I do. I have a lot of questions, however. It is probably better to address them here than it would be if I were in a Bible Study with the "flock" because I doubt many of them would ever ask such questions nor would they be edified by hearing them. It won't hurt the thick-skinned EvC group, however. I want them to just observe. Are you agreeable?


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Phat, posted 12-11-2018 4:47 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by ICANT, posted 12-12-2018 1:02 AM Phat has responded
 Message 37 by Phat, posted 12-25-2018 6:27 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6180
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 4 of 39 (845088)
12-12-2018 1:02 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Phat
12-11-2018 11:23 AM


Re: An Invitation And Request For ICANT
Hi Phat

What took you so long?

I would love to have such a discussion with you. Are you going for 50 posts each or a total of 50 before opening it for comments.

Phat writes:

if I were in a Bible Study with the "flock" because I doubt many of them would ever ask such questions nor would they be edified by hearing

It would depend on the flock. My flock which is very small would not have any problem with any question asked in a service. They know how to read the Bible and understand it. I would like to share with you and everyone else here how to accomplish that. It is hard to understand the Bible without first being saved and receiving the Holy Spirit to lead mankind and guide them in all truth.

But I studied something in the 7th grade in journalism class that can help anyone to better understand what they read. We studied it so we would know how to write a story to tell what we were reporting on.

There are five things you need to know to tell a story or understand it.

1. Who is speaking/writing?
2. To whom or about whom is he speaking/writing?
3. What subject is he speaking/writing about?
4. When or about what time is he speaking/writing?
5. What is the occasion for the speaking or writing?

We need to add the proper application rule to understand the Bible.

There is the general application of a truth or deed to every person.
And
The particular application of a truth or deed to an individual or particular group.

The first thing you need to know is who is speaking or writing?
1. Sometime God is speaking.
2. Sometime angels are speaking.
3. Sometime the devil is speaking.
4. Sometime prophets are speaking.
5. Sometime wicked men are speaking.
6. Sometime apostles are speaking.

Phat read a passage of scripture you have problems with understanding and apply these rules to it and see if it is easier to understand.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Phat, posted 12-11-2018 11:23 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by Tangle, posted 12-12-2018 3:29 AM ICANT has not yet responded
 Message 8 by Phat, posted 12-12-2018 12:29 PM ICANT has responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6513
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 5 of 39 (845092)
12-12-2018 3:29 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by ICANT
12-12-2018 1:02 AM


Re: An Invitation And Request For ICANT
ICANT writes:

But I studied something in the 7th grade in journalism class that can help anyone to better understand what they read. We studied it so we would know how to write a story to tell what we were reporting on.

There are five things you need to know to tell a story or understand it.

1. Who is speaking/writing?
2. To whom or about whom is he speaking/writing?
3. What subject is he speaking/writing about?
4. When or about what time is he speaking/writing?
5. What is the occasion for the speaking or writing?

Phat, as always ICANT only tells you part of the story, deliberately withholding the most important so that he can lead you by the nose:

6. WHY is person telling me this and why now?

He also omits the most important journalistic principles of all, consider your source, check everything and remain independent.

quote:
Its [journalism's] practitioners must maintain an independence from those they cover

Independence is a cornerstone of reliability.

On one level, it means not becoming seduced by sources, intimidated by power, or compromised by self-interest. On a deeper level it speaks to an independence of spirit and an open-mindedness and intellectual curiosity that helps the journalist see beyond his or her own class or economic status, race, ethnicity, religion, gender or ego.


https://www.americanpressinstitute.org/...lements-journalism

Edited by AdminPhat, : content hidden. Press peek button to read


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by ICANT, posted 12-12-2018 1:02 AM ICANT has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by Phat, posted 12-12-2018 10:47 AM Tangle has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11896
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 6 of 39 (845114)
12-12-2018 10:47 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Tangle
12-12-2018 3:29 AM


I CANT and Phat ONLY Please.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Edited by Phat, : added comment. I do appreciate Tangles input, but not here not now

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Tangle, posted 12-12-2018 3:29 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by Tangle, posted 12-12-2018 11:03 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6513
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.5


(1)
Message 7 of 39 (845116)
12-12-2018 11:03 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Phat
12-12-2018 10:47 AM


Re: I CANT and Phat ONLY Please.
Oops, apologies, I thought I *was* in the other thread.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Phat, posted 12-12-2018 10:47 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11896
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 8 of 39 (845134)
12-12-2018 12:29 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by ICANT
12-12-2018 1:02 AM


Starting Intro
ICANT writes:

Hi Phat
What took you so long?
I would love to have such a discussion with you. Are you going for 50 posts each or a total of 50 before opening it for comments?

I just want the discussion to be between us for now. Let's go for 50 or so and then re-evaluate. I hope that you and I can find common ground and yet I will be honest in my questions. I have many.

ICANT writes:

My flock which is very small would not have any problem with any question asked in a service. They know how to read the Bible and understand it. I would like to share with you and everyone else here how to accomplish that. It is hard to understand the Bible without first being saved and receiving the Holy Spirit to lead mankind and guide them in all truth. There are five things you need to know to tell a story or understand it.

Yes, I also was taught those same 5 things in church. We had an old parishioner, Joe. He taught me the same 5 things you mention in regards to understanding the Bible. You may have noticed that Tangle interrupted us and added a 6th thing. We can discuss that later, but first, let me tell you that I was taught the same basic principles that your church believes...including the KJV Only thing.

There was one specific example that we were taught contrasting the NIV and the KJV. It was Jesus explaining why the Disciples could not drive some demons out. The scripture was Mark 9:29 and Matthew 17:21. Here is an online commentary regarding the particulars: Prayer and Fasting or just Prayer? Let me just say that in my life, I have extreme insulin resistance and Type II Diabetes. Listening to most doctors does not work. Science has failed to get rid of the problem through drugs. Had I simply extrapolated my sickness to demonic activity, which I don't do by the way.. I would have simply prayed. had I saw your trusty old KJV I would have found my answer: Fasting. Bottom Line: Be it a demon of sickness or be it a metabolic disorder, fasting and prayer together are better than any drug. Mind you I consult Doctors also...im not inclined to hole up in the backwoods with a prayer group alone.

But let's address the whole idea of faith and belief and if it conflicts with science, critical thinking, and basic human wisdom. We can do that a little at a time as my questions come up. But first lets address my salvation. Faith doesnt think I'm saved. Many here at EvC scoff at the whole idea..but of course that is expected. Your church lays out the basic doctrine on their website, as do many churches. And I am the type of guy who questions everything that I have been taught. I don't question that God exists. I even agree with my pastor that I am my own issue and need to die to self. Keep in mind, however, that I am unafraid to question everything .

I do not doubt that Jesus is alive today. I do not doubt that He died for me, (for all of us) was buried, and rose again on the 3rd day. What I DO question is why God would have done it that way. In ways, the stories don't make sense in light of what we know today. In addition, there is lots of evidence that organized religion globally has an agenda apart from heavenly recruitment. Comments?


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by ICANT, posted 12-12-2018 1:02 AM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by ICANT, posted 12-12-2018 2:53 PM Phat has responded

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6180
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.3


(1)
Message 9 of 39 (845150)
12-12-2018 2:53 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Phat
12-12-2018 12:29 PM


Re: Starting Intro
Hi Phat

Phat writes:

You may have noticed that Tangle interrupted us and added a 6th thing.

Which is covered in #5, being the occasion for the speaking/writing.

Phat writes:

I was taught the same basic principles that your church believes...including the KJV Only thing.

They used the KJV only before I came as their pastor. In fact they had a questionnaire with 19 questions I had to answer before they even let me come speak to them. No one is allowed to speak in our pulpit until they have answered the questions to the satisfaction of the Church. All our missionaries we support have to fill one out every year.

They use the KJV Bible because it is the best English translation we have. Does it have mistakes in it? Yes there are places where the translators used the wrong word to translate into English. Genesis 1:2 has the first mistake of using a conjunctive conjunction instead of a disjunctive conjunction as it should have been. The LXX uses a disjunctive as well as the Masoretic text is marked as a disjunctive with a Rebhia.

Phat writes:

I have extreme insulin resistance and Type II Diabetes.

Sounds like yours is worse than mine. I have been on meds for the last ten years (metformin). But 4 months ago I put myself on the Keto diet. I hate fasting. Since going on the diet I have lost 24 lbs, quit using metformin and my morning sugar runs between 84 and 107 depending on how much I cheat. Went to Golden Corral Monday evening ate all I wanted and even 1 piece of fudge and my sugar was only 107 Tuesday morning.

Phat writes:

What I DO question is why God would have done it that way.

Do you question why or do just not understand why God would do things the way He did?

When I look back at my life and the life of others I don't understand why God chose to make it possible for me and them to spend eternity with Him. He made it so easy no one should miss heaven. But it is His Estate and He can make any rules He desires to make. He could have made it a lot harder but He desired that everyone ever born would come to Him, trust Him and be saved.

quote:
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.


That tells you everything you need to know.
God loved you.
God died in your place to buy you back from bondage.
God died so all could be saved and have eternal life with Him.
Verse 18 tells us that a person is condemned already.
Since all are condemned all must accept His free full pardon to be un-condemned.

The reason mankind is condemned is because they have not trusted Him to do what He says He will do. That is give everyone eternal life if they only believe on which is trust Him.

When it comes to your salvation you know what you did when you first asked God to save you. If you were playing games He did not even hear you. If you were serious and meant business with Him, He gave you eternal life at that moment and you have that eternal life at any moment that ever comes to exist (present perfect tense in the Greek).

Examine your earlier decision and if you meant business with God you can rest assured that He honored His word and gave you eternal life and you became my brother, and we will spend eternity together with God knowing all the answers to the questions we can't find here on earth.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Phat, posted 12-12-2018 12:29 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by Phat, posted 12-12-2018 5:59 PM ICANT has not yet responded
 Message 12 by Phat, posted 12-13-2018 3:23 PM ICANT has not yet responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 11896
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 10 of 39 (845165)
12-12-2018 5:59 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by ICANT
12-12-2018 2:53 PM


Phats Early Influences
Perhaps I should start at the beginning. I was born and raised here in Denver and have lived here all of my life. When I was younger, my parents used to take me to our church...a Methodist church. They were part of the post-war migration westward after WW II and were products of both the Great Depression and the war itself. As far as I was told, neither grew up with much religion nor belief. God was never spoken of personally and relationally in our house, but church attendance was encouraged because it gave them a sense of social connection with other like-minded people and they could show me off to the other families...their son in his two tight suit.

To attend church meant that one could claim to be a part of the larger moral and ethical community. The first time that I was introduced to God was by a group of 3 sisters who were among the founders of that particular church. Washington Park East

quote:
Thelittle church started by the Lort Sisters became the Washington Park Methodist Episcopal Church in 1912, but was popularly known then and subsequently as Washington Park Community Church.
In the fall of 1916, the congregation began a campaign for a new building, and John Evans II, grandson of the territorial governor, donated six lots at the northwest corner of South Race and Arizona for the site of a new building. The prominent architectural firm of Willis Marean and Albert Norton designed the building. Work began on the new structure in 1917, and Denver University Chancellor Henry A. Buchtel laid the cornerstone. The building was dedicated on 5 January 1919, with Bishop Francis J. McConnell preaching the first sermon (Note the Wiki Link). The church was one of the architectural gems of the East Washington Park Neighborhood and included a beautiful courtyard and covered walkway reminiscent of a medieval cloister.

Note how the social fabric of South Denver reflected the cohesiveness of a growing community and how the church fit into that lifestyle. My parents, of course, did not arrive until the 1950s and I was born in 1959. When I was 7 or so, the Lort sisters, still alive and in their mid-eighties, still taught Sunday school as they had for many years. There was something different about these ladies...I believe that they were what you call saved.

They had a radiant joy and their love of the Lord was contagious and not at all religious or rehearsed, as it is in many church folk. They had a group of we wayward children who didn't like attending regular service yet who also didn't fit in with the junior high group at the church who met by themselves Wednesday nights. Through the stories they told and the Bible they shared, I became drawn towards Jesus as someone who actually was alive. It was many years before I decided to accept that for myself, however.

ICANT writes:

When it comes to your salvation you know what you did when you first asked God to save you. If you were playing games He did not even hear you. If you were serious and meant business with Him, He gave you eternal life at that moment and you have that eternal life at any moment that ever comes to exist (present perfect tense in the Greek).

Examine your earlier decision and if you meant business with God you can rest assured that He honored His word and gave you eternal life and you became my brother, and we will spend eternity together with God knowing all the answers to the questions we can't find here on earth.

I'm sure that I am saved if in fact it is based on belief and acceptance rather than good works. I talk with God daily.
I recall that I felt a distinct change in my nature and perception when I accepted Jesus into my heart. During my 14 years here at EvC, I have gotten into some discussions which did make sense from my opponents. Take ringo, for instance. He won't claim to be an atheist yet he states that God is fiction. He has no relationship with God, nor did jar, apart from an almost distant deistic approach. Percy is the same way, but I respect these members here as much as I respect you, different though they are. We can discuss certain particulars that I agree with and disagree with.

Edited by Phat, : fixed spelling and added link


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by ICANT, posted 12-12-2018 2:53 PM ICANT has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11896
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 11 of 39 (845170)
12-12-2018 6:45 PM


A Rabbit Trail For A Moment

I enjoy putting these posts together. It is refreshing to talk with someone who trusts that I know what I'm doing if I am serious with God.

Addressing the peanut gallery following this thread: I just set up a comment thread for anyone so inclined to comment on what ICANT and I say to one another.

Peanut Gallery Comments on Great Debate As I began telling my story about my parents church, I googled the Lort sisters and found the link from Bishop Francis J. McConnell and noted his belief in Boston Personalism. It appears that he was a learned Bishop. Do you believe that many of the men in the Baptist Convention have similar philosophical interests related to belief yet not Bible specific? Thats a rabbit trail. Basically, the question is whether a man should limit himself to the Bible only or whether you consider it appropriate to discuss spiritual matters philosophically. My personal belief is that it can't hurt. After all, Pastor, you likely discuss many things every day with many people. I am impressed that you are even here at EvC given how conservative you appear to be.

Edited by Phat, : added

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by ICANT, posted 12-13-2018 7:12 PM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11896
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 12 of 39 (845233)
12-13-2018 3:23 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by ICANT
12-12-2018 2:53 PM


Christian Belief In Debating EvC Forum

EvC Forum challenged my beliefs, but I have to this point kept my belief that God exists, that His character and essence is in Jesus Christ, and that Jesus Christ lives today...eternally in communion with me.

Jar and I really had a big history of going at it in regards to belief. Jar taught me that I can believe yet not prove that God exists, but that IF God exists, God exists regardless what any of us imagine, write about or read about. I learned jars arguments quite well and have studied them in preparation for my discussions here on the forum. Critics would chastise me for allowing my mind to be swayed by unbelievers, but it is my nature to get involved in these discussions, and I will continue to do so. I was never allowed to go as deep with church members or even Pastors...because they simply would never entertain the arguments nor my questions.

The likely reason that Christian believers won't go as deep with me is found in scripture:

Titus 3:9 writes:

But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.


2 Timothy 1:3-7 writes:

3As I besought thee to abide still at Ephesus, when I went into Macedonia, that thou mightest charge some that they teach no other doctrine, 4Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do. 5Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned: 6From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling; 7Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.

Note that Timothy is advised to avoid questioning the Faith. To me, this is a stumbling block to my learning. Tangle is a man with 4 degrees who warns me to avoid you. Jar never had much respect for you, either. Granted they all quibble with you over cosmological science vs what the Bible says...and I won't go into all that except to say that I have watched Faith get torn to shreds in her defense of YEC beliefs and get frustrated because she simply won't consider the evidence provided by the members who actually do have degrees in those fields of discipline. She is a Calvinist all the way and won't question the Bible. I'm guessing that you also are that way, though I hope that as we engage in our dialogue that you will at least listen to any arguments I have regarding the modern critical thinking and questioning and how it relates to what has been historically taught in the faith.

I have no interest in YEC or old earth creationism. I believe that God was the original and initial Creator and I don't care how we got from there to here. My questions are more philosophical and focus on how God thinks and how modern humanity gets along and whether science and Religion can peacefully coexist or not.

ICANT writes:

Sounds like yours is worse than mine. I have been on meds for the last ten years (metformin). But 4 months ago I put myself on the Keto diet. I hate fasting.

Now you have my attention! It takes wisdom to adopt a ketogenic approach to diabetes. As for fasting, that is tough but the research shows that it works well if the body has extreme insulin resistance and the sugars are too high. In regards to this topic, my pastor was right. I am my own issue. I am responsible for my health. Having a donut at the church will throw it all out of whack. Why must all of the refreshments at church be so sweet?

Edited by Phat, : added donut


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by ICANT, posted 12-12-2018 2:53 PM ICANT has not yet responded

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6180
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 13 of 39 (845277)
12-13-2018 7:12 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Phat
12-12-2018 6:45 PM


Re: A Rabbit Trail For A Moment
Hi Phat

Phat writes:

I enjoy putting these posts together. It is refreshing to talk with someone who trusts that I know what I'm doing if I am serious with God.

Being serious with God is the most important thing we can do in this life. As He is the one that is going to judge us in the end. He will judge the unsaved as to what they did with the opportunity to trust Him. They will be cast into the lake of fire. He will judge those who have trusted Him for salvation according to what they have done for Him after they were saved. That is where our good works come into play. Not in order to be saved but to please our Father for what He has done for us. He wants us to love Him just because He is God.

Phat writes:

Do you believe that many of the men in the Baptist Convention have similar philosophical interests related to belief yet not Bible specific?

It really depends on what group of Baptist you are talking about.

The North American Baptist Convention has their set of belief's and practice.

The Southern Baptist Convention which has four divisions in it with each having their set of belief's and practice.

Those are the major Baptist Conventions everybody else claims to be independents of some sort. Most Baptist Churches in the US are too liberal for my Church to fellowship with as they practice a lot of traditions of mankind instead of following what God has said for us to practice in His Word.

We are an independent fundamental Bible Believing Baptist Church answering to no one but God. We do corporate with several like minded Churches in doing mission work, and supporting missionaries.

Phat writes:

Basically, the question is whether a man should limit himself to the Bible only or whether you consider it appropriate to discuss spiritual matters philosophically.

When is comes to faith and practice the Bible is the final authority.

If people can not discuss things regardless of their subject how can one's knowledge be increased. No man is an island unto himself.

Phat writes:

After all, Pastor, you likely discuss many things every day with many people.

Yes I discuss many things. Some have to do with the Bible. Some have to do with worldly things and decisions people make. Some have to do with how to do things like build a cabinet, hang a door, or other chores around the house. I am expected to know everything which I don't. The pastor is supposed to have the answer for everything. So I try to learn all that I can.

Phat writes:

I am impressed that you are even here at EvC given how conservative you appear to be.

When I was in school I was not exposed to the Big Bang Theory or any other theory. I did know about the gap theory, as I had read about it. But the angels being kicked out of heaven because the devil sinned and living on the earth having children with humans did not make sense to me then and it does not now. The devil still has access to heaven today and will until the war takes place in the last days between him and his angels and Michael and his angels. Then he is chained for 1,000 years in the lake of fire. I knew this when I was 10 years old and had never heard anyone preach about it.

I was out of the US for 15 years from 1989-2003 and when I came back it was like I was in a foreign country compared to the country I had left. I had to go back overseas for another year and returned in 2006. I then ventured into EvC in 2007 to broaden my knowledge.
I am beginning to think it was a waste of time but every now and then there is a spark that spurs me on. I am in the process of writing a book titled Creation according to Gods Word. In it I will cover the gap theory, the day age theory, the big bang theory, I will even touch on string theory which is not a theory.

I will compare these to what the original Biblical Text says about creation.

If you notice I keep asking anyone that will answer my post to give me any and all evidence they have to support their beliefs. Basically I get told I don't know anything, I am not educated enough to understand what I am reading. But no one gives any evidence to support the BBT, or inflation. I do get a lot of assertions which is not evidence. When I give evidence no one refutes it they only tell me I am not qualified to talk about it.

After typing these last few paragraphs I am beginning to question myself about why I am still here posting when I am getting no evidence or debate.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Phat, posted 12-12-2018 6:45 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by Phat, posted 12-14-2018 5:13 AM ICANT has responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 11896
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 14 of 39 (845304)
12-14-2018 5:13 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by ICANT
12-13-2018 7:12 PM


Re: A Rabbit Trail For A Moment
ICANT writes:

Being serious with God is the most important thing we can do in this life.

I agree. For me personally, prayer and introspection/contemplation are necessary for my day. I will confess that I lapse occasionally, but when the times get tougher, I pray more often. Of course, we pray at church, but it's easy to do there. It's harder to develop a time of communion and prayer at home alone.
ICANT writes:

We are an independent fundamental Bible Believing Baptist Church answering to no one but God.

Looks intense! I read this link:
Who are the Independent Baptists, and what do they believe?

When people try and share their questions and concerns with you, do you offer any answers to them apart from urging them to study scripture more thoroughly? Have you had difficult parishoners before? How did you address them? Do they still attend? Just curious, Pastor.

ICANT writes:

I was out of the US for 15 years from 1989-2003 and when I came back it was like I was in a foreign country compared to the country I had left. I had to go back overseas for another year and returned in 2006. I then ventured into EvC in 2007 to broaden my knowledge.
I am beginning to think it was a waste of time but every now and then there is a spark that spurs me on. I am in the process of writing a book titled Creation according to Gods Word. In it I will cover the gap theory, the day age theory, the big bang theory, I will even touch on string theory which is not a theory.

I will compare these to what the original Biblical Text says about creation.

Were you on missions trips when you left the US? What were they like? Were you successful? Did you learn anything while on them?

Your book sounds like quite a project. I would like to read it once you have it published. Let me know when it is due to come out.

You being here is not a waste of time,but I think we all are a bit addicted to the internet. Perhaps we need to fast now and then.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by ICANT, posted 12-13-2018 7:12 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by ICANT, posted 12-14-2018 12:28 PM Phat has responded

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6180
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.3


(1)
Message 15 of 39 (845342)
12-14-2018 12:28 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Phat
12-14-2018 5:13 AM


Re: A Rabbit Trail For A Moment
Hi Phat

Phat writes:

It's harder to develop a time of communion and prayer at home alone.

If you practice what I have for the past 70 years you will not have a problem talking with God.

Every night when I lay down to go to sleep I have a conversation with God thanking Him for helping me make it through the day. Speaking specifically about some of the days events. I then ask Him to keep me through the night.

When I wake up before I get up I have a conversation with God thanking Him for keeping me through the night and asking Him to help me make it through the day.

Then I have conversations with God all through the day. I consult God about every decision I make.

Phat writes:

intense! I read this link:
Who are the Independent Baptists, and what do they believe?

That is a pretty good article. They do mention things we don't agree with.

When is comes to dress the Bible teaches modest apparel. Ladies can wear pants and pant suits as long as they are modest. Our ladies have a ladies auxiliary which meets once per month and they have a lesson on some subject they choose. During these lessons our young ladies are taught how to act like ladies and how to keep their temple pure in God's eyes. It is not the Pastor's job to preach on those subjects. I have a wife of 62 years that is very capable of doing that as well as several other ladies.

The men have a meeting on the same night as the ladies meet and we follow the same pattern plus talk about things we need to take care of in the next business meeting. Our young men are taught to be gentlemen. All of our young people say thank you, yes ma'am/sir, no ma'am/sir and please. Our young men are taught to have proper respect for ladies, which includes a man never raises his hand against a woman, for any reason.

We accept members from any church of like faith and order as we are. All others need to be baptized as a scriptural new testament church is the only entity that has the authority to preach, teach, or baptize.

We believe that all scriptural churches will make up the Bride of Christ.

A scriptural new testament church is a group of scripturally baptized believers who are covenanted together to carry out the great commission. To be scriptural they have to be following God's Word in their teachings.

Any who teach any type of works in order to be saved are not teaching God's Word and therefore they are not a scriptural new testament church.

Phat writes:

When people try and share their questions and concerns with you, do you offer any answers to them apart from urging them to study scripture more thoroughly?

Yes I answer their questions and if I don't know the answer I search until I find the correct answer.

I allow my people to ask questions during my sermon if one pops into their mind while I am preaching. They have learned not to ask a question at 5 minutes to 12 because I will answer it before we dismiss.

But we have instituted a Bible study 1 night a month in different members homes in which everyone brings their questions, or verses they have problems with and we do a round house discussion. That has eliminated most questions during my sermons. I have taught several books that I studied in Bible College so they are getting to the point they can answer their own questions as they arise.

Phat writes:

Have you had difficult parishoners before? How did you address them? Do they still attend? Just curious, Pastor.

I have had my share of parishioners like Judas. If you or a church is doing what God wants you to do the devil will send people to try to kill your testimony for God.

We do practice discipline like the church is taught to do by God's Word.

Phat writes:

Were you on missions trips when you left the US? What were they like? Were you successful? Did you learn anything while on them?

I went to the Cayman Islands to install some cabinets in a project my boss was selling cabinets too. I worked to support my family all my ministry from 1962 until 2007 before I pastored a church that paid me a salary. But if I had not had sufficient income from outside the church I could not have lived off what they were able to give me.

In other words I have always done mission work. My first pastorate in 1968 after school was a mission in Largo, Florida. When I went there my family made the 3rd family. We grew to the point we purchased 5 acres of property that had a house on it. I removed a wall between the master bedroom and living room and we had services in the house. I had a mobile home I was living in at that time. We reached capacity for the house having a top attendance of 52 people in a service. We then constructed a sanctuary building with Sunday school rooms and kitchen area. The auditorium would seat 160 people. The church reached the point it could support a pastor and I resigned and took another church that had bad financial problems. I stayed with the church until we reached the point finances were such they could support a pastor and had over 18k in the bank. I resigned and went back to school to study the languages more. During this time we worked with an established church teaching God's Word.

In 1989 I went to the Cayman Islands to install the cabinets I mentioned above, a 4 month job. That wound up lasting 6 months. I came back to the states and 4 months later the fellow I had done the work for wanted me to come down and work for his company doing the next phase of his project.

Not long after my return to the Island one of my former Pastors from 1955 was preaching at a little church on the Island. My wife and I went to see them and found out why God had sent me to the Island. It was a small group that had a building that was half finished. Birds and all kinds of insects could fly in and out of the building where the rafters were attached to the beam and nobody knew how to fix the problem and there were many other things that needed to finish the building. We joined the church and began to fix all the problems as I was a contractor and had done all those things in the states. We finished the building and the church grew. There were members from between 14 and 20 different countries at all times. I was privileged to teach Sunday school and special classes to these many people from all these countries. I taught people who went back to their country and could not find a scriptural church so they started one themselves. During my time there we had 39 people that came from Cuba who spent 9 months with us coming to our services. I preached Sunday morning and evening in a service for them in the fellowship hall. Since I did not know Spanish I used 3 interpreter's who said they learned more during that 9 months that they had in the last 10 years. This was due to the fact they had to listen in order to interpret the message.

The church decided we needed to build a parsonage for the Pastor to live in. Interest at that time was 12.75% which we would not have been able to afford payments on a loan. We prayed and waited on the Lord to provide the funds. One Sunday morning a gentleman and his wife came to visit us. They were members of a church in California that we fellowshipped with. Before he left the Island he decided to loan us 150k to build the parsonage with. My boss had given a bid of 450k CI dollars (each equal to $1.25 US). I drew the plans for the parsonage a 3200 sq. ft. house. The government approved the plans. Since it was a church all the material that we imported was tax free reducing the cost quite a bit. We finished the building for 120K paid the 30K immediately on the principle. We paid the entire loan off in less than 5 years. When we left the Island in 2003 everything was paid for and the church had over 100k in the bank. God is good and supplied our needs as well as protect our benefactors money in the process as the bank the money was in went bankrupt 1 month after we got his money out of it. Again God is good.

Phat writes:

Your book sounds like quite a project.

The hardest problem that I am having now is filtering through all the information I have obtained over the last 10 years and trying to condense it down to a book of around 300 pages. I have over 1 Terabyte of information I am working with.

Phat writes:

Perhaps we need to fast now and then.

If you have noticed I have done a little of that over that last few months.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Phat, posted 12-14-2018 5:13 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by Phat, posted 12-14-2018 12:48 PM ICANT has responded

    
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