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Author Topic:   Discussion With A Conservative Pastor: I CANT & Phat Only..for now
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6180
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 31 of 39 (845906)
12-22-2018 2:31 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by Phat
12-18-2018 9:58 AM


Re: EvC Critics Challenge Orthodox Beliefs
Hi Phat

Thought I would come back and get this one.

Phat writes:

How do you interpret the following scripture?

James 2:14-17 writes:


14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
KJV

James was the pastor of the church at Jerusalem. So He had his biological Jewish brethren and his Gentile born again brethren and he is addressing them. They are all saved and born again so they have eternal life. But they are admonished to work not for salvation but because of salvation.

Why didn't you put the next verse in there?

quote:
2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

It is impossible to show your faith without works.
But I can show you my faith by my works.

But salvation does not come by works faith produces works. If a person tells you they have faith in God and you do not see any fruit of that faith it is a dead faith.

quote:
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.


We are saved by faith but we are saved to walk in good works.

quote:
John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

10:30 I and my Father are one.


We are saved by faith. This makes us Jesus sheep.
Jesus says His sheep hear Him and follows Him.
Those who do not follow Jesus is not His sheep.
Makes no difference how many time one has been baptized.
And joined a church. They have believed in vain.
Not truly hearing and obeying the word.

Phat writes:

In addition, it has recently been brought up that in the parable of the Good Samaritan, help was extended beyond the immediate group. Some believers maintain that the church need only take care of its own. Comments?

A parable is a simple story used to illustrate a moral or spiritrual lesson.

quote:
Luke
10:31 And by chance there came down a certain priest that way: and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side.

10:32 And likewise a Levite, when he was at the place, came and looked on him, and passed by on the other side.

10:33 But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he had compassion on him,

10:34 And went to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and wine, and set him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him.

10:35 And on the morrow when he departed, he took out two pence, and gave them to the host, and said unto him, Take care of him; and whatsoever thou spendest more, when I come again, I will repay thee.

10:36 Which now of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbour unto him that fell among the thieves?

10:37 And he said, He that shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.


The lesson of this parable is found in verse 36 when Jesus asked who was neighbour to the man that fell among the thieves.

Now if you want to find out who Jesus was talking too you have to go back to verse 25and you find a young lawyer who is tempting Jesus. This lawyer wanted to know what he had to do to inherit eternal life.

This young lawyer was not a saved person just a self righteous religionist. Wanting to obtain eternal life his way.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Phat, posted 12-18-2018 9:58 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

    
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6180
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.3


(1)
Message 32 of 39 (845907)
12-22-2018 2:51 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by Phat
12-21-2018 2:31 PM


Re: Jesus: Plan A or Plan B?
Hi Phat

Phat writes:

I'm just not sure what road of suffering He wants me to travel. Nor do I trust many of the religious in this world.

What makes you think you must suffer?

God does have a job for you to do. You just need to find that job and get busy.

I don't trust religion or the religious. Most of them belong to the devil.

PhatThe critics would agree, and say that organized religion is brainwashing people.

I say the critics are the ones that have been brainwashed.

Phat writes:

But tell me...can we ever have both, or is accepting God making a definite choice?

It is a definite choice to receive His offer of a free full pardon and then dedicating one's life to serving God. If you want to have a full peaceful life. Phat I don't have a worry in the world. God has always supplied what I needed never failing me once in my 79 years. As I look back I did not agree with Him on many occasions but He was right.

Phat writes:

Right any better than the Left or is everybody simply human and fallen...in need of a savior?

We are all sinners in need of a savior.
When we accept that savior we are still sinners
But we are not under the penalty of sin.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Phat, posted 12-21-2018 2:31 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by Phat, posted 12-22-2018 4:29 PM ICANT has responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 11882
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 33 of 39 (845920)
12-22-2018 4:29 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by ICANT
12-22-2018 2:51 AM


Re: Jesus: Plan A or Plan B?
We are all sinners in need of a savior.
When we accept that savior we are still sinners
But we are not under the penalty of sin.
ringo and I argue all the time about this stuff. To his credit, he at least knows the value of the message (to help others and not judge them) but he argues even on behalf of satan...arguing that a loving God would never allow hell to exist. One characteristic of my critics Tangle and ringo is that they limit God to a character in a book. They simply won't believe that God existed before the authors even wrote about Him. \

At best, they argue about what the God of the book did. Some of them are honest in their denial of belief, however. They have bought into the argument that the book (Bible) is a product of humans. Additionally, they honestly see no evidence that God exists. Tangle has a vendetta against our "foolish" beliefs. ringo simply sees logic as his guiding light. Logic and evidence. Comments?


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by ICANT, posted 12-22-2018 2:51 AM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by ICANT, posted 12-22-2018 11:00 PM Phat has responded

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6180
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 34 of 39 (845929)
12-22-2018 11:00 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Phat
12-22-2018 4:29 PM


Re: Jesus: Plan A or Plan B?
Hi Phat,

Phat writes:

ringo and I argue all the time about this stuff.

Those three thing are facts.

Phat writes:

To his credit, he at least knows the value of the message

Not the message in this:

quote:
We are all sinners in need of a savior.
When we accept that savior we are still sinners
But we are not under the penalty of sin.

If he did he would change his argument.

Phat writes:

but he argues even on behalf of satan...arguing that a loving God would never allow hell to exist.


But a just God would require a hell. Which He is.

Phat writes:

One characteristic of my critics Tangle and ringo is that they limit God to a character in a book.

Actually they limit Him to the abilities of mankind.

Phat writes:

They simply won't believe that God existed before the authors even wrote about Him.

This is the reason I say they limit Him to the abilities of mankind. They believe He is not God as He is a product of the thoughts of mankind, therefore He does not exist other than in the minds of some deluded people like Phat and ICANT.

Phat writes:

They have bought into the argument that the book (Bible) is a product of humans.

27% of the old testament was predictions about coming events.

Over 1,000 of those predictions have come true. Many are yet to come true. But so far they are coming true at a 100% accuracy rate.

Show me any other predictors that have that rate of fulfilled predictions.

Phat writes:

Additionally, they honestly see no evidence that God exists.

Even a blind person sitting in a forest can see evidence that God exists.

I don't think that is the problem. I think he can't dare face the reality that he is not the captain of his own destiny.

Phat writes:

ringo simply sees logic as his guiding light. Logic and evidence. Comments?

ringo would not recognize evidence if he stumbled over it.

You have to be looking for evidence before you can find it.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Phat, posted 12-22-2018 4:29 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by Phat, posted 12-23-2018 8:16 AM ICANT has responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 11882
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 35 of 39 (845935)
12-23-2018 8:16 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by ICANT
12-22-2018 11:00 PM


The Vast Universe
I always respected our members Cavediver and Son Goku. They knew their field of study consensus and tentative evidence quite well. I too have always had an interest in Cosmology to a layman's curiosity. In light of our discussion, I have some questions.

  • Do you believe or have any evidence in regards to the idea that the earth is Gods focus or do you believe He may have many forms of life throughout the universe (and maybe, hypothetically, multiverses) whom He is involved with?

    Keep in mind that we humans tend to think we are the center of things.


    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

    Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
    In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
    ~Stile


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 34 by ICANT, posted 12-22-2018 11:00 PM ICANT has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 36 by ICANT, posted 12-23-2018 11:05 PM Phat has responded

      
  • ICANT
    Member
    Posts: 6180
    From: SSC
    Joined: 03-12-2007
    Member Rating: 1.3


    Message 36 of 39 (845961)
    12-23-2018 11:05 PM
    Reply to: Message 35 by Phat
    12-23-2018 8:16 AM


    Re: The Vast Universe
    Hi Phat

    Phat writes:

    I always respected our members Cavediver and Son Goku.

    I learned a lot from them even though cavediver got exasperated at the way I asked him questions.

    Phat writes:

    Do you believe or have any evidence in regards to the idea that the earth is Gods focus or do you believe He may have many forms of life throughout the universe (and maybe, hypothetically, multiverses) whom He is involved with?

    There is no mention of such in the Bible of any such events. But since God is eternal and all powerful why would He be restricted to one experiment with creatures who He gives free will. There could be thousands of universes. Maybe He will let me have my own universe one day to be responsible for.

    quote:
    Isaiah 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.

    55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.


    Phat writes:

    Keep in mind that we humans tend to think we are the center of things.

    Yes we seem to think a lot more about our importance than we really are.

    Especially when we get to the point we are telling the creator of the universe how He should rule and run His estate.

    Our thoughts are no where near to God's thought.
    Our ways are no where near to God's ways.

    Yet puny little man shakes his fist in the face of God like we can change what He is doing. Or the way He is doing it.

    God Bless,


    "John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 35 by Phat, posted 12-23-2018 8:16 AM Phat has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 38 by Phat, posted 12-26-2018 2:14 PM ICANT has not yet responded
     Message 39 by Phat, posted 01-02-2019 11:19 PM ICANT has not yet responded

        
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 11882
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.4


    Message 37 of 39 (845994)
    12-25-2018 6:27 AM
    Reply to: Message 3 by Phat
    12-11-2018 11:23 AM


    Post deleted
    Fixed. Post had a wrong address.

    Merry Christmas EvC.

    Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

    Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

    Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
    In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
    ~Stile


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 3 by Phat, posted 12-11-2018 11:23 AM Phat has not yet responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 11882
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.4


    Message 38 of 39 (846006)
    12-26-2018 2:14 PM
    Reply to: Message 36 by ICANT
    12-23-2018 11:05 PM


    Merry Christmas Pastor ICANT
    Merry Christmas to you and Betty. May you both have a blessed Christmas and a healthy New Year and may your flock grow in wisdom and be blessed in 2019.
    Thanks for answering my questions. I hope to learn more this coming year and strengthen my faith while maintaining my balance with the secular wisdom learned here at EvC. I hope that we all grow in the knowledge that is truly important for our lives.

    ICANT writes:

    But since God is eternal and all powerful why would He be restricted to one experiment with creatures who He gives free will. There could be thousands of universes. Maybe He will let me have my own universe one day to be responsible for.

    I would have enough of a challenge simply being responsible for a family or a small flock. Perhaps I could learn to be responsible for a country at best...but a planet..or a universe would require supernatural wisdom and impartation.

    Also I responded over in the Creation thread. I am convinced that belief in God is basic and unconnected to strict logic, reason, or reality. It is a choice and a decision. I feel as if I will never be able to convince anyone nor will I ever convince them. The reason is not that I have weak arguments, though to be honest, some of my opponents here have very good arguments. I have gotten to know some interesting online personalities here. And in fact, I feel as if everyone was meant to believe in the resurrection, they would. Ironically, ringo gives one of the strongest arguments for believers...even though he claims not to be one. Perhaps we waste too much time trying to convince them, Pastor.

    One Bible Study that I would enjoy, however, concerns challenging Percys idea that once Jesus died, the Apostles made up the story in order to keep their livelihood going. Granted human nature is sinful to the core, but my question is why people put so much energy into trying to challenge the resurrection rather than simply accepting it as a belief. I conclude that many folks just don't want to believe. Either that or they await you or I somehow coming up with a logical argument that will convince them. What do you think?

    Finally...I shared a link to videos by an apologist whom I respect: Craig Parson.
    Bible On Trial I
    Bible On Trial 2
    Bible On Trial 3
    Bible On Trial 4
    Bible On Trial 5
    Bible On Trial 6
    If you get a chance, watch one and tell me if you would share it with your flock. They were not received well here at EvC, though I think that a lot of thought and information went into them. Critics will say that they are simply attempts at selling religion, but I have been open-minded enough to read what the critics say also. Seems the critics earn a living being critical and skeptical. Thus, the argument of motive applies equally to both sides.

    As I examine my own belief, I confess that it is sometimes challenged quite harshly. I choose to not doubt that God exists and that Jesus is in my heart. I chose to ask Him in 25 years ago, and I have never dared to doubt my salvation. Just the fact that I feel like opening up publically about my faith and questions here on this forum...of all places...confirms Gods direction in my life.

    I never intended to come to EvC to preach. I must admit that at one time I sought to convert members to my way of belief, but found them challenging me instead...and I did not run, as many Christians would have done. I grew to like the forum and the many discussions we had. I feel as if i had gone instead to a Christian forum, my faith never would have been tested nor would I understand how the critics of Christianity think and why they feel the way they do.
    GDR(Greg) is one of my favorite Christians here...as he shows love to a forum of skeptics and critics who rarely if ever agree with him.

    As we get ready for a New Year in 2019, there is much that needs discussing in this world we live in. Here is a video from a young man who talks a lot on YouTube. The Plastic Straw Dilemma

    In this one, he discusses the concept of selective empathy.
    Tell me what you think.

    Is selective empathy one of the global problems related to human nature? Critics say that religion won't help the world. We believe that Jesus will. But how will this global awareness come about? I feel that simply sharing the Gospel no longer works for a skeptical and educated world.

    Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

    Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

    Edited by Phat, : added


    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

    Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
    In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
    ~Stile


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 36 by ICANT, posted 12-23-2018 11:05 PM ICANT has not yet responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 11882
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.4


    Message 39 of 39 (846298)
    01-02-2019 11:19 PM
    Reply to: Message 36 by ICANT
    12-23-2018 11:05 PM


    2019 and beyond

    How were your holidays? Did you ever get a chance to watch the videos that I sent you?

    I wanted to ask you also about your opinion of the TV Evangelists. Are any of them honestly seeking God or are they seeking fame, deception, and notoriety?

    Finally, what do you think of this question?

    Edited by Phat, : added

    Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

    Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
    In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
    ~Stile


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 36 by ICANT, posted 12-23-2018 11:05 PM ICANT has not yet responded

      
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