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Author | Topic: Who Made God? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
You don't have to take a poll of 7 billion people but yes, there has to be agreement. You can not, for example, use your feelings of spooks crawling around in your head as evidence.
So are you saying that humanity has to agree before it can be called evidence? Phat writes:
You can't use Hebrews 11 as your sole definition of evidence. Remember that the KJV was wrtiiten several centuries ago when our ideas about scientific evidence and even judicial evidence were very different. The NIV, for example, uses the word "assurance" instead. The ASV, the ESV and the RSV use "conviction".
Heb 11:1-2 writes: Phat writes:
Don't forget that I am the one who respects the dusty old book and you are the one who throws out the parts you don't like.
But of course that is a Dusty old book.... Phat writes:
Exactly. And there is far from a consensus as to the accuracy or evident meaning of said book (or books).All that are in Hell, choose it. -- CS Lewis That's just egregiously stupid. -- ringo
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
You can't use Hebrews 11 as your sole definition of evidence. Remember that the KJV was wrtiiten several centuries ago when our ideas about scientific evidence and even judicial evidence were very different. The NIV, for example, uses the word "assurance" instead. The ASV, the ESV and the RSV use "conviction". Don't assume too much about the word choices for the more modern translations. Not only are the Greek texts corrupt but there is a legal requirement that to justify publishing a new translation requires that it have a certain number of differences from those already published. So most of the changes are nothing more than synonyms for terms in other versions, with little or no actual translational justification. The KJV wasn't "written," it was a translation. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9202 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.4 |
Well then show that the KJV translation is a more accurate translation.
Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness. If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Showing that is not easy. Dean John William Burgon went to great lengths to show the corruptions of the Greek texts as well as the bad translation of the "New Revised Edition" put out in 1881 as a supposed updating of the KJV which was really a wholesale retranslation based on bad texts and bad translation.
He wrote a number of books on the subject. The main one was "The Revision Revised" which covered the corruptions and the translational choices. He also wrote one specifically on the corruptions of the Greek texts. I also have a blog on all this, The Great Bible Hoax of 1881. I've collected a list of books on the subject, many of them by Burgon, in the right margin. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2424 Joined: Member Rating: 1.3 |
Faith said:
quote: But here are a few Luther quotes on Esther.
quote: quote: Luther said Revelation was NOT Apostolic. Martin Luther made an effort at an accurate translation (and his Bible was based on the manuscripts that would late be used for the Kings James translation), but there was - to him - a MUCH DEEPER PROBLEM than simple translation issues.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Luther wasn't wrog about much but he was wrong to reject books we now regard as canonical.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Pressie Member Posts: 2103 From: Pretoria, SA Joined: |
Thugpreacha writes: Do you think that *we* are here for no purpose? Do you think your favourite Spooks are there for no purpose? Just answer the question.
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Faith writes:
What I'm telling Phat is that the meaning of the word "evidence" has changed in four hundred years. The translators who produced the King James Version could not possibly have known how we would use the word four hundred years later.
Don't assume too much about the word choices for the more modern translations. Faith writes:
Which is why no translation is reliable in the first place.
Not only are the Greek texts corrupt... Faith writes:
There are copyright laws covering the new translations but there is no copyright on the corrupt Greek texts.
... there is a legal requirement that to justify publishing a new translation requires that it have a certain number of differences from those already published. Faith writes:
The whole point being that the words used in modern translations are not synonymous with the modern use of "evidence". So most of the changes are nothing more than synonyms for terms in other versions, with little or no actual translational justification.All that are in Hell, choose it. -- CS Lewis That's just egregiously stupid. -- ringo
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Phat Member Posts: 18350 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
I'll try and add a link to the transcript when I get a few minutes later today.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile |
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Phat Member Posts: 18350 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Theo The Great writes: It means that through Him, all things were created. Not through a dead genius. At best, Hawking was an intelligent ant. Jesus Was, Is, and always Will Be, for those whose names are written in the Lambs Book of Life. I've never checked the list myself.
Arbitrator of reality? WTF does that even mean?Tangle writes: I think he just likes the patterns and noises the words make in his head. He's obviously slightly off his trolley at the moment, probably spending a lot of time listening to mad pastor videos that he's now trying to ape.
Cute that you use the word "Ape." Animals, by nature, have instincts. They do not have a conscious self awareness nor an intuition. Only humans have these qualities. The GoE Story is quite likely not literally true. If the Bible was literal in the sense of Great Floods (no evidence for one) Adam & Eve and the talking snake Danial and the Great Fish, etc...then all of life as we know it would become an untrustworthy, enchanted and magical land of demons, goblins, talking snakes, literal Angels and literal fallen angels...or demons. Thus, rational Christians such as myself have assumed the stories to be metaphorical and yet actual in a metaphorical sense. Humans are the story on this planet, despite our egotistical awareness of and misuse of such a fact. GOD, the Creator of all seen and unseen throughout not only a universe but a potential multiverse reality of as yet unknown matters, ideas, concepts, and facts, did in fact desire to connect with the humans here on earth at one preordained and foreknown point in time (as we know it). The book (or more appropriately, books, Canons, and written beliefs supporting the same general flow) was intended to be the explanation for humanity Of this eternal Communion through the Third Person of the Trinity presented to and introduced to consensual understanding at a given point in time. It was foreknown that He would die, killed by the very humans He was trying to reach. It was foreknown that there would be a Spiritual War of sorts between Gods perfect Communion offered to us to accept and that of a rogue free willed fallen angel who was also foreknown to have chosen independence from said Creator. Believe it or not. But don't assume that today's current crop of educated Free Willed Humans* who have chosen to reject Jesus Christ (Gods Human Character) and dismiss the stories as descriptions of a cruel and developing God of human imagination in one of many storybooks designed in the minds of humans. For the fact is that (some) humans by nature have chosen to dismiss the stories as old Legends and Cultural Mythos. And the reason is as simple as the story reveals it to be. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9202 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.4 |
It means that through Him, all things were created.
More word salad. That doesn't mean anything either.Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness. If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
The Authorized KJV Bible was created to be a Politically Correct Single Source Document that would dampen the violence between Roman Catholic Christians and Protestant Christians and support the Divine Right of Kings.
It failed in both.
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9202 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.4 |
It is also probably the worst translation there is of the original Greek, Aramaic and Hebrew.
Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness. If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.1
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Get help Phat.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Phat Member Posts: 18350 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
You call it word salad because you are not a believer. Your brain is not wired to take leaps of faith. Thus to you, I may as well be saying
’Twas brillig, and the slithy toves Did gyre and gimble in the wabe: All mimsy were the borogoves, And the mome raths outgrabe. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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