|
Author
|
Topic: Did Jesus Exist? by Bart Ehrman
|
PaulK
Member Posts: 17828 Joined: 01-10-2003 Member Rating: 2.5
|
|
Message 166 of 563 (915370)
02-13-2024 9:35 AM
|
Reply to: Message 165 by Percy
02-13-2024 9:16 AM
|
|
You made yourself the subject in Message 336
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 165 by Percy, posted 02-13-2024 9:16 AM | | Percy has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 175 by Percy, posted 02-13-2024 12:53 PM | | PaulK has replied |
|
Theodoric
Member Posts: 9202 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: 08-15-2005 Member Rating: 3.4
(1)
| |
| |
| |
|
|
Message 167 of 563 (915372)
02-13-2024 10:21 AM
|
Reply to: Message 163 by AZPaul3
02-12-2024 11:36 PM
|
|
but there is no evidence for any of this. The only person in that period claiming to persecute christians is Saul. There is no record of this any where else. We can accept authorship without accepting what the author claims. I can list thousands of examples of this. Using this logic we should also accept that this Jesus character came to America. Also, we know nothing about this Paul other than what he wrote. Yes there seems there was a Paul, but who was he. There is no evidence of a church before Paul. We don't even know who these people were. We don't know what there beliefs were. We know nothing other than what Paul wrote. Find some corroborating evidence and I might consider the idea. History does not rely on one source. If there is one source it is extremely doubtful to be accurate.
What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness. If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 163 by AZPaul3, posted 02-12-2024 11:36 PM | | AZPaul3 has not replied |
|
Theodoric
Member Posts: 9202 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: 08-15-2005 Member Rating: 3.4
|
(1)
| |
| |
| |
|
|
Message 168 of 563 (915373)
02-13-2024 10:22 AM
|
Reply to: Message 164 by PaulK
02-13-2024 12:40 AM
|
|
Show evidence. Show something from the historical record. Anything.
What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness. If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 164 by PaulK, posted 02-13-2024 12:40 AM | | PaulK has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 173 by PaulK, posted 02-13-2024 12:24 PM | | Theodoric has replied |
|
Tangle
Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 5.1
|
(2)
| |
| |
| |
|
|
Message 169 of 563 (915378)
02-13-2024 10:50 AM
|
|
|
The difficulty is that what we know evidentially about Jesus is pretty much exactly what we know about someone that never existed.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
|
Theodoric
Member Posts: 9202 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: 08-15-2005 Member Rating: 3.4
|
(1)
| |
| |
| |
|
|
Message 170 of 563 (915381)
02-13-2024 11:10 AM
|
Reply to: Message 169 by Tangle
02-13-2024 10:50 AM
|
|
Exactly. I have asked many times for someone to present contemporary, historical evidence for the existence of Jesus or the person they want him to be modeled after. If there can be no agreement on whether he was a rebel, minister, magician, charlatan, there can be no precursor jesus was modeled on.
What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness. If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 169 by Tangle, posted 02-13-2024 10:50 AM | | Tangle has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 171 by Tangle, posted 02-13-2024 11:47 AM | | Theodoric has replied |
|
Tangle
Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 5.1
|
(1)
| |
| |
| |
|
|
Message 171 of 563 (915386)
02-13-2024 11:47 AM
|
Reply to: Message 170 by Theodoric
02-13-2024 11:10 AM
|
|
I'm not remotely an expert on this but it seems that the lessor character John the Baptist has more evidence than Jesus. (From Flavius.) And Moses has none at all - shocking!
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 170 by Theodoric, posted 02-13-2024 11:10 AM | | Theodoric has replied |
|
Percy
Member Posts: 22505 From: New Hampshire Joined: 12-23-2000 Member Rating: 5.4
|
Granny Magda in Message 155 writes: I wouldn't expect any evidence, or at least very, very little, for "an obscure religious mystic." And yet we have the Gospels. Dodgy evidence they may be, but they are evidence. Evidence of what? Believers have interpreted every part of the Bible in a multitude of ways.
There are reasons to think that there is some truth in them,... And where that truth lies and what that truth is has been the focus of a multitude of opinions and interpretations. I think my own conclusion that the Jesus of the NT is made up is most likely.
...not least the fact that Jesus makes for such a terrible candidate for the Messiah. Jews of the 1st Century were not expecting their Messiah to kick up a bit of ineffectual fuss and then get ignominiously executed. They were expecting an ass kicker who was going to smite their enemies and win back their lands. The spiritual savior of the Gospels was kind of a hard sell. If an author were to invent a Messiah out of whole cloth it seems implausible that he would have invented this one. Or since there was no such person as Jesus it was necessary for the story's conclusion to include his disappearance, otherwise his absence from the world would have been difficult to explain.
I think Paul created Christianity. I think that might be over-egging it. Certainly Paul's influence is great. I think it likely though that the proto-Christian church existed before him and that James and Paul were both leaders of that church before Paul. Don't forget Peter.
He might have made Jesus up out of whole cloth, or he might have based him upon a real person. I think Paul was probably sincere. I think he really had a vision, which he genuinely believed was of a divine Jesus and it changed his life, not necessarily for the better. I don't see a strong motivation for him to devote his life to this if he wasn't sincere. Also he mentions meeting James the brother of Jesus and Peter, so if he's making it all up, that's at least three people he made up out of whole cloth, two of them ostensibly still alive at time of writing. He's also necessarily making up the church in Jerusalem and the Christians he supposedly persecuted before his conversion. These seem like big lies, easily exposed even in the ancient world. No, I think he's telling the truth, as he sees it. When I say I don't believe Jesus was a real person I mean the Jesus of the New Testament, the one who walked on water and turned water into wine. Whether Paul made Jesus up depends on which Jesus you believe he's spreading the good word about. If he's preaching the Jesus of miracles then he's preaching a made-up Jesus, even if he borrowed the name of Jesus from James's brother. But if Paul is just preaching "an obscure religious mystic" who taught charity and forgiveness then sure, I agree it makes it more likely he was a real person. But "an obscure religious mystic" is not the Jesus people of faith believe in. Generally, Christians believe in the Jesus of the gospels, and I'm saying that Jesus didn't exist. --Percy
|
PaulK
Member Posts: 17828 Joined: 01-10-2003 Member Rating: 2.5
|
|
|
Message 173 of 563 (915390)
02-13-2024 12:24 PM
|
Reply to: Message 168 by Theodoric
02-13-2024 10:22 AM
|
|
quote:
Show evidence. Show something from the historical record. Anything
Tell me then what you mean when you say that he wasn’t called Jesus.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 168 by Theodoric, posted 02-13-2024 10:22 AM | | Theodoric has replied |
|
PaulK
Member Posts: 17828 Joined: 01-10-2003 Member Rating: 2.5
|
|
|
Message 174 of 563 (915392)
02-13-2024 12:31 PM
|
Reply to: Message 171 by Tangle
02-13-2024 11:47 AM
|
|
It’s not surprising that John the Baptist has more evidence, being more successful than a historical Jesus actually would have been. Moses may be fictional - the Exodus story is more fiction than fact, perhaps a complete fiction, or nearly so.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 171 by Tangle, posted 02-13-2024 11:47 AM | | Tangle has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 176 by Tangle, posted 02-13-2024 1:00 PM | | PaulK has replied |
|
Percy
Member Posts: 22505 From: New Hampshire Joined: 12-23-2000 Member Rating: 5.4
|
(1)
| |
| |
| |
|
|
Message 175 of 563 (915394)
02-13-2024 12:53 PM
|
Reply to: Message 166 by PaulK
02-13-2024 9:35 AM
|
|
But you made sensible people the topic before that in Message 323:
PaulK writes: Or, for another comparison we don’t know when or where Jesus was born, nor do we know much of his ancestry. But no sensible person concludes that Jesus didn’t exist based on those facts. All I did was identify myself as a member of the group of people who you claim would not conclude that Jesus didn't exist, except that I do. And now you're further claiming that the opinion I hold means I'm not a sensible person. Woe to they who disagree with you. The things you enumerated that we don't know, such as when or where Jesus was born, would also be disputed by many sensible people. You're trying to rule out disagreement out of hand by saying no sensible person would conclude differently than you. I'm saying that sensible people could conclude differently, indeed have concluded differently, and that there is room for discussion. --Percy
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 166 by PaulK, posted 02-13-2024 9:35 AM | | PaulK has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 178 by PaulK, posted 02-13-2024 1:39 PM | | Percy has replied |
|
Tangle
Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 5.1
|
(1)
| |
| |
| |
|
|
Message 176 of 563 (915395)
02-13-2024 1:00 PM
|
Reply to: Message 174 by PaulK
02-13-2024 12:31 PM
|
|
PaulK writes: It’s not surprising that John the Baptist has more evidence, being more successful than a historical Jesus actually would have been. That's a tautology isn't it? JtB is more successful historically than JC because we have more evidence for him. But JtB didn't perform miracles or rise from the dead - yet he has more historicity than JC who did?
Moses may be fictional
He didn't actually exist did he? No evidence at all. No Moses, no commandments; let's get on with all that coveting.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 174 by PaulK, posted 02-13-2024 12:31 PM | | PaulK has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 177 by PaulK, posted 02-13-2024 1:30 PM | | Tangle has replied |
|
PaulK
Member Posts: 17828 Joined: 01-10-2003 Member Rating: 2.5
|
|
|
Message 177 of 563 (915398)
02-13-2024 1:30 PM
|
Reply to: Message 176 by Tangle
02-13-2024 1:00 PM
|
|
quote:
That's a tautology isn't it? JtB is more successful historically than JC because we have more evidence for him.
Not entirely. After all the synoptic Gospels imply a very short career for Jesus as a preacher. Even the Gospels admit that Jesus came to John for baptism. And of course there is no problem with proposing that Jesus was far less successful than the Gospels say - we’d expect exaggeration there.
quote:
But JtB didn't perform miracles or rise from the dead - yet he has more historicity than JC who did?
Of course Jesus didn’t do those things either (And have you sought 915278 out the stories told by John’s followers? Can you say that they did not credit him with any miracles?)
quote:
He didn't actually exist did he? No evidence at all.
It’s hard to say. How do we tell the difference between pure fiction and fiction with some historical basis? And how do we say what was and was not part of that basis without evidence? The expulsion of the Hyksos was real - and maybe one of the inspirations for the Exodus story. Or maybe not. We can’t tell. Edited by PaulK, : Corrected auto “correction”
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 176 by Tangle, posted 02-13-2024 1:00 PM | | Tangle has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 179 by Tangle, posted 02-13-2024 1:44 PM | | PaulK has replied |
|
PaulK
Member Posts: 17828 Joined: 01-10-2003 Member Rating: 2.5
|
|
|
Message 178 of 563 (915399)
02-13-2024 1:39 PM
|
Reply to: Message 175 by Percy
02-13-2024 12:53 PM
|
|
quote:
But you made sensible people the topic before that
The point being that sensible people wouldn’t jump to conclusions on clearly inadequate evidence.
quote:
All I did was identify myself as a member of the group of people who you claim would not conclude that Jesus didn't exist, except that I do. And now you're further claiming that the opinion I hold means I'm not a sensible person. Woe to they who disagree with you.
Obviously not - it’s the reasoning I’m criticising, not the position.
quote:
You're trying to rule out disagreement out of hand by saying no sensible person would conclude differently than you.
No, I’m clearly not saying that. On the other hand you aren’t answering with substantive points. You’re just complaining that you are considered less than sensible (possibly incorrectly, even after my clarification in Message 337). Would a sensible person do that ?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 175 by Percy, posted 02-13-2024 12:53 PM | | Percy has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 188 by Percy, posted 02-13-2024 2:39 PM | | PaulK has replied |
|
Tangle
Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 5.1
|
(2)
| |
| |
| |
|
|
Message 179 of 563 (915400)
02-13-2024 1:44 PM
|
Reply to: Message 177 by PaulK
02-13-2024 1:30 PM
|
|
PaulK writes: Not entirely. After all the synoptic Gospels imply a very short career for Jesus as a preacher. Even the Gospels admit that Jesus came to John for baptism. And of course there is no problem with proposing that Jesus was far less successful than the Gospels say - we’d expect exaggeration there. You are saying that the gospels are unreliable but we can rely on them for the historicity of Jesus? Doesn't work, sorry. We know that none of the authors of the bible actually knew or even met Jesus. We know that not one word of them was written by Jesus. We know that no contemporaneous historians wrote about Jesus. There's not much more historicity there than for Bilbo Baggins is there?
It’s hard to say. How do we tell the difference between pure fiction and fiction with some historical basis? We don't we just say there's no evidence and then shrug.
And how do we say what was and was not part of that basis without evidence? The expulsion of the Hyksos was real - and maybe one of the inspirations for the Exodus story. Or maybe not. We can’t tell. So we just shrug and go fishing. Why would we do anything else?
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 177 by PaulK, posted 02-13-2024 1:30 PM | | PaulK has replied |
|
PaulK
Member Posts: 17828 Joined: 01-10-2003 Member Rating: 2.5
|
|
|
Message 180 of 563 (915401)
02-13-2024 1:54 PM
|
Reply to: Message 179 by Tangle
02-13-2024 1:44 PM
|
|
quote:
You are saying that the gospels are unreliable but we can rely on them for the historicity of Jesus? Doesn't work, sorry.
I guess if you want to take a very superficial view you could say that. But it’s hardly an accurate description. Unreliable does not mean “completely false”. Nor do I say that Jesus definitely existed - only that it seems more likely than not that there was a historical person behind the stories. L Ron Hubbard existed even though he never battled with a Japanese submarine, nor even suffered the serious injuries he supposedly healed. Someone founded Christianity. They would have to have lived at about the time that Jesus is supposed to have lived. Why should he not have a common name at the time? Why should he not have parents named Joseph and Mary? Why should he not be executed by the Romans if he was fomenting rebellion, even if by only encouraging people to think of him as the Messiah? The Gospel stories are there. Saying that they were just made up is not an adequate explanation for their existence - it explains nothing about them.
quote:
We don't we just say there's no evidence and then shrug.
It’s better than claiming certainty when no certainty is available.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 179 by Tangle, posted 02-13-2024 1:44 PM | | Tangle has replied |
|
™ Version 4.2