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Author | Topic: Did Jesus Exist? by Bart Ehrman | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.7 |
Hi Theo,
Theodoric writes: Who us he? What are some of the characteristics? Was he a pacifist preacher or a revolutionary? Was he venerated at birth? Was he executed? If so how? Is only part if the story myth? Where do we draw the line? Theodoric writes: I am assuming you are asking 'who is Jesus'? Who us he? Emmanuel.
Theodoric writes: What are some of the characteristics? He was perfect.
Theodoric writes: Was he a pacifist preacher or a revolutionary? For the most part he was a pacifist preacher. He fed the hungry, healed the sick, blind, and lame but on one occasion He ran the money changers out of the Temple because they had made it a den of thieves.
Theodoric writes: I don't know if I understand the question you intended, but I will answer it as asked. Was he venerated at birth? No spirit emerges, there was no cosmic dance of stardust and dreams, In the quiet of dawn, and no whispered secrets, and no promises etched in the fabric of existence. His birth was announced to the Shepards in the fields keeping their sheep.
Theodoric writes: Was he executed? Yes.evidence quote: Theodoric writes: If so how? The first bolded enlarged type above.The Roman extreme penalty was crucifixion. Theodoric writes: Is only part if the story myth? None is a myth I gave you a historical record of what happened.
Theodoric writes: Where do we draw the line? At the evidence. If you don't like it that is your problem, not mine. God Bless,"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9202 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.4 |
It doesn't take a Rhodes scholar to infer that if I would accept Ralph I would accept a variation in the name Jesus. But I guess trying to be a bit humorous is lost on some people.
The name is irrelevant to my argument. How removed from the Jesus dude of the Bible can someone be and still be the "real person" behind the myths? Why do you feel there needs to be a human model? Did I still not answer?What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness. If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9202 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.4 |
Tacitus was addressed and dismissed here almost 20 years ago. The rest of your post is preaching and using the Bible.
https://www.evcforum.net/dm.php?control=page&t=8000&mlist... TACITUS (c.112CE) Roughly 80 years after the alleged events Tacitus allegedly wrote a (now) famous passage about "Christ" - this passage has several problems however: * Tacitus uses the term "procurator", used in his later times, but not correct for the actual period, when "prefect" was used. * Tacitus names the person as "Christ", when Roman records could not possibly have used this name (it would have been "Jesus, son of Joseph" or similar.) * Tacitus accepts the recent advent of Christianity, which was against Roman practice (to only allow ancient and accepted cults and religions.) * (No-one refers to this passage for a millenium, even early Christians who actively sought such passages.) Thus, even if the Tacitus passage is not a later interpolation, it is not evidence of a historical Jesus based on earlier Roman records, but merely a few details which Tacitus gathered from Christian stories circulating in his time (c.f. Pliny.) What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness. If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?
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Percy Member Posts: 22505 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.4
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Granny Magda in Message 193 writes: Evidence of what? Evidence for the existence of Jesus as I made clear. For the existence of Jesus as "an obscure religious mystic?" Why would such a person even be necessary? If that's who Jesus really was then 95% of the gospels are fiction, and if there never was a Jesus then 100% of the gospels are fiction. That 5% hardly seems worth finagling over. Concerning evidence, no one is questioning the existence of the gospels or the NT, but the exact same gospel passages have been interpreted as saying a variety of different things, and you described them as "dodgy evidence." Some take the gospels literally, others figuratively, others fictionally, and there are multiple interpretations within each of these contexts. Agreeing on what they're evidence of seems challenging. You argue that the gospel writers would not have introduced fictions like the census if they were just making Jesus up, but Paul's epistles were written long before Luke. Separate Christian communities would have had a long time to develop and evolve and create and abandon ideas that later required reconciliation. We already know the gospels are full of fiction. The only question is, "How much?"
But "an obscure religious mystic" is not the Jesus people of faith believe in. Generally, Christians believe in the Jesus of the gospels, and I'm saying that Jesus didn't exist. But I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about a plausible historical Jesus and you know that. Why insist upon responding to a claim I'm not making? It's obtuse, it's unnecessarily confusing and in my opinion it's just sloppy rhetoric . Your doing the same thing as Theodoric, addressing only the lunatic claims of Christians and ignoring the far more plausible claim that I am making. Sorry, didn't mean for it to come across that way. I only meant that the Jesus that I believe did not exist is the one from the gospels. I don't have any particularly strong opinion about the possibility that Jesus is based upon a real person who didn't live the life described in the gospels. Maybe, maybe not. Why does it matter? You go on to answer:
This matters because a bad habit of Jesus Mythicists is a sort of bait and switch. They claim to address a plausible Jesus but then switch to arguments that only matter for the magical Jesus. It's infuriating. Saying "Jesus didn't exist" when you're really talking about the magic Jesus is just confusing and contrary. It has no place in any sensible conversation about a plausible historical Jesus. It's a waste of time; we're all already agreed that no-one walked on water. People who are not onboard with that aren't engaged in any recognisable kind of scholarship. I don't care what Christians believe; I'm not interested in that conversation. I wasn't aware of the Jesus Mythicists.
I don't understand why you insist upon framing it like this. I know that you don't believe in magic. You know that I don't believe in magic. I just don't get it. I'm not intentionally trying to be obscure. I think we're just focused on different beliefs. I'm focused on what Biblical literalists believe, while you seem focused on the historical Jesus. --Percy Edited by Percy, : Clarify.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.5 |
quote: You didn’t say that you would accept “Ralph” even when I explicitly asked. And really if you would accept anything you might as well drop that part of it entirely. So, if he came from Nazareth, had parents named Joseph and Mary, founded Christianity and was crucified by the Romans (as well as being “called Jesus”) wouldn’t that be enough ? If not, why not?
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9202 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.4 |
Irrelevant.
If there was historical evidence for such a person then it would be reasonable to consider that he was the basis for the Jesus of the bible. There is no one in the historical record that meets those criteria so your point is moot. What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness. If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?
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ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.7 |
Hi Theo,
Theodoric writes: Tacitus was addressed and dismissed here almost 20 years ago. You guys can dismiss any thing that that don't fit your narrative. But that don't erase it from History. I dismissed the BBT 70 years ago so what?
Theodoric writes: Roughly 80 years after the alleged events Are you telling me that I could not take the records of the history of Taylor county that was written 1n 1940 and write a book and give a perfect account of an event happened in 1930? I have had a copy of those events since 1950. What do you think Historians do?
Theodoric writes: * Tacitus uses the term "procurator", Are you really that dumb? Tacitus did not write in EnglishThe Annals, authored by the Roman historian and senator Tacitus, was written in Latin. This historical work covers the period from the reign of Tiberius (beginning in AD 14) to that of Nero (ending in AD 68). Tacitus meticulously chronicled the events and political complexities of the Roman Empire during the first century AD. His Latin prose style is renowned for its precision and resonance, making The Annals a significant source for understanding Roman history during that era. The English word "procurator" did not exist until the 13th century.
Theodoric writes: Tacitus names the person as "Christ", The translators used that word but Tacitus didn't because the word Christ did not exist until the 14th century.
Theodoric writes: * Tacitus accepts the recent advent of Christianity, How? The word “Christianity” did not exist until the 13th century. [qs=it is not evidence of a historical Jesus based on earlier Roman records,but merely a few details which Tacitus gathered from Christian stories circulating in his time. Why did Tacitus, a Roman historian and Roman Official equal to our senators have to depend on what some one wrote as he had access to government records? Pliny the Younger, the Roman governor of Bithynia and Pontus wrote to Emperor Trajan around AD 110 about how to handle the cristos's who would not worship the Roman Gods."John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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Percy Member Posts: 22505 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.4
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I don't think it prudent to discuss with someone with a closed mind.
--Percy
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9202 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.4
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Good day Sir! I have no desire to discuss this issue with you.
What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness. If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.5 |
quote: Which means that your point was worthless.
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AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8564 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
The position that I consider to be “not sensible” is the position that we can conclude that Jesus didn’t exist (solely) because we don’t know where or when he was born. I agree. Is someone making that argument? Only the two criteria? How about the rest of the gospel(s)? Is there any happening involving this charismatic rabi recorded earlier than the first gospel, Mark? Are there any reasons to show that Mark didn’t just write up a tall tale as was the want back then? I wouldn’t think the objection to Jesus would be some undocumented time/place of (supposed) birth. There are many more aspects to Jesus’ existence and actions that go undocumented even with that first narrative by Mark. Like all of them.Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.5 |
quote: Discussing a point with a thin-skinned nutcase who makes silly demands would seem to be imprudent, especially when he’s a shameless liar. So I guess I’m lucky that you refuse to discuss anything.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.5 |
quote: I never said that anyone was. The whole point was to compare with K Rose’s idea that the fact that we don’t know what the first life was like is a significant problem for evolution. However, Percy seems to think it applies to him. That’s what started this. As for the rest I already pointed out that additional reasons could change the evaluation, but Percy won’t have that.
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9202 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.4 |
Why is my point worthless?
This is where you are supposed your assertions with an argument and facts. What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness. If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.5 |
quote: You were arguing that there is no point arguing for a historical Jesus who is nothing like the Jesus of the Bible. But as you have conceded, my idea of a historical Jesus is sufficiently like the Jesus of the Bible.
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