Over on the
Patterns and tautologies thread, Binary and I had a tiny off topic discussion about circular reasoning and the Bible.
In message 29 Binary said:
If I say that "the Bible is infallible and any facts which contradict it must not be true," I'm using circular reasoning--this isn't acceptable for rational people. Which is why I can't think like that anymore.
Binary recognises that some people use the Bible to support the Bible and Binary realises that this is employing circular reasoning.
I suggested that it is also circular reasoning to believe that Jesus is the Messiah, Lord and Saviour.
Binary gave a very interesting response when s/he replied that this was correct, ”to some degree’.
What I would like this thread to be about is to what degree is ”some degree’?
Personally, I would argue that belief in Jesus as Messiah, Lord, and Saviour is 100% circular.
I asked Binary if we could discuss this on another thread and s/he is interested.
So to get the discussion started, I would state that Jesus is only the Messiah, Lord, and Saviour if you use circular reasoning.
Here are a few examples from a site whose owner is overwhelmed at the amount of prophecies that Jesus fulfilled.
The owner of
this site claims that:
There were over 360 prophecies foretold about the coming Jewish Messiah - hundreds of years before Jesus was born in Bethlehem. Jesus fulfilled all 365 of these prophecies. Of these 360+ prophecies, there are 109 that only Jesus (Yeshua) could have fulfilled. See complete list of 365 Messianic Prophecies here
For the moment we can forget that there’s a great many prophecies that this site owner presents as messianic that aren’t messianic. I won’t present every prophecy because it only requires a few to make my point. But the entire list is
here if anyone wishes to see them all.
1. Genesis 3:15.....Seed of a woman (virgin birth).....Luke 1:35, Matthew 1:18-20
2. Genesis 3:15.....He will bruise Satan's head.....Hebrews 2:14, 1 John 3:18
3. Genesis 5:24....The bodily ascension to heaven illustrated....Mark 6:19
4. Genesis 9:26-27...The God of Shem will be the Son of Shem...Luke 3:36
78. Psalms 22:14,15...Suffered agony on Calvary...Mark 15:34-37
79. Psalms 22:15........He thirsted........John 19:28
80. Psalms 22:16...They pierced His hands and His feet....John 19:34,37;20:27
Isaiah 6:9-12...Blinded to Christ and deaf to His words...Acts 28:23-29
164. Isaiah 7:14...To be born of a virgin...Luke 1:35
165. Isaiah 7:14...To be Emmanuel-God with us... Matthew 1:18-23
166. Isaiah 8:8...Called Emmanuel...Matthew 28:20
167. Isaiah 8:14...A stone of stumbling, a Rock of offense... 1 Pet. 2:8
168. Isaiah 9:1,2...His ministry to begin in Galilee...Matthew 4:12-17
169. Isaiah 9:6...A child born-Humanity...Luke 1:31
I would imagine that any semi-sensible person would realise that every single one of these amazing prophecies are circular, the author has just used one part of the Bible to support another part of the Bible.
So, to initiate the discussion, I’d like to ask if there are any prophecies concerning Jesus Himself, not prophecies uttered by Jesus that have yet to happen, that aren’t circular?
™ Version 4.2