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Author Topic:   Great Debate: Romans 1-9 - it describes the Gospel of God
iano
Member (Idle past 1971 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 1 of 5 (331402)
07-13-2006 8:29 AM


Dear Admin.
Myself and Larni have discussed the idea and would like to embark on thread which involves presentation of and discussion about the contents of Romans chaps 1-9. These chapters I assert, contain the (detailed) bones of the gospel of Jesus Christ: who needs it, why they need it, how salvation is obtained (if obtained) including the mechanisms whereby a person is acutally saved, how salvation is not obtained, objections a person might raise against the gospel which Paul deals with - to name some items that lie at the core of the book.
Larni has taken the following stance:
I will undertake to not "yes but..." until you draw your conclusions.
I will also approach the debate from the position of a believer who is looking for answers from a text he (I) believes to be ispired by your god. Sound fair?
Fair? Sure. Essential? Absolutely. Such a wide subject would decay into a thousand mini-topics - each of which has been debated ad infinitum here without resolution. Larnis stance means that that is unlikely to happen here.
If promoted I will post an outline of Romans 1:1 to 1:15 before the weekend in order to set some context and background and to get Larnis views on the way things are progressing and if he is happy with the format thus far. I will not post much more until I return from holidays in a week or so.
Ta,
Ian

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by AdminAsgara, posted 07-13-2006 8:33 AM iano has replied

AdminAsgara
Administrator (Idle past 2333 days)
Posts: 2073
From: The Universe
Joined: 10-11-2003


Message 2 of 5 (331403)
07-13-2006 8:33 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by iano
07-13-2006 8:29 AM


Go ahead and post your opening outline here as a new msg. We can then promote just the new post as msg 1 of your Great Debate.

AdminAsgara Queen of the Universe

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    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1 by iano, posted 07-13-2006 8:29 AM iano has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 3 by iano, posted 07-13-2006 8:38 AM AdminAsgara has not replied

    iano
    Member (Idle past 1971 days)
    Posts: 6165
    From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
    Joined: 07-27-2005


    Message 3 of 5 (331405)
    07-13-2006 8:38 AM
    Reply to: Message 2 by AdminAsgara
    07-13-2006 8:33 AM


    Thanks AA. I'll get back later with it.
    Ian

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 2 by AdminAsgara, posted 07-13-2006 8:33 AM AdminAsgara has not replied

    iano
    Member (Idle past 1971 days)
    Posts: 6165
    From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
    Joined: 07-27-2005


    Message 4 of 5 (331480)
    07-13-2006 12:07 PM


    GREAT DEBATE: LARNI AND IANO
    Heres some background Larni - whilst I refresh my memory:
    Christ, his life and death and resurrection - and the good news (or gospel) which stems from that, is the very centre of gravity of the whole Bible. It is said that the (message or purpose of the) New Testament is latent (or hidden (but discoverable)) in the Old Testament and the (meaning) of the Old Testament is patent (or made obvious) in the New Testament. Rather than being a hotch potch collection of books arising from the mind of man, the Bible is the inspired word of God; God inspired man to deliver to men what it is God wants to say to man. It can be expected to tie together and be consistant - despite apparent contradictions.
    The location of the book of Romans itself is worth noting. The New Testament opens with the 4 gospels: 4 different accounts of Jesus' life, death and resurrection - each looking at him from slightly different angles. This to provide a better view of the whole in much the same way as our stereo vision provides us with a better view of the whole.
    Next up we have the book of Acts (or Acts of the Apostles). It takes up a historical narrative of the days and years immediately following Jesus' resurrection and ascension into heaven. Central issues described therein are:
    - the establishment of the Christian church in Jerusalem at Pentecost (enabled and signalled by the sending of Gods Holy Spirit to reside in the believers - something which Jesus has promised would happen). Pentecost took place 7 weeks after Jesus' crucifixion
    - by the power/inspiration of the Holy Spirit now within them, the apostles and disciples are transformed from a cowering rabble who hide in a locked room for fear of the same authorities who crucified Christ only weeks before. Emboldened, they go out and preach openly of Jesus Christ in Jerusalem - which would have been chock full of Jewish pilgrims from surrounding nations. This was the time of the Jewish period of feasting which included the recent Passover (during which Christ was crucified) and the approaching Jewish feast of Shavout. Many thousands were converted by their preaching.
    - this open confrontation with the Jewish authorities lead to the persecution of the fledgling church by those who had only recently dealt with Jesus. One of the central figures leading this persecution was a man named Saul (a Jew and Roman citizen from the town of Tarsus). Saul was a member of the Pharisee branch of Judaism, and one of the highest order, a highly educated man and fanatically zealous in his defence of the Judaic faith. On his way to Damascus, where he was intending to round up and imprision Christians who had fled the persecution, he had an encounter with Jesus Christ who appeared to him. Saul recognised Jesus as Lord and was converted to Christianity himself. He received a new name, Paul: the writer of Romans and many other epistles in the New Testament.
    It is interesting to note that it is Paul who was used in this way. A converted person doesn't cease to exist - they are not destroyed in total: their talents and abilities simply get turned around, redirected to serve God and not Satan/self (more later). Paul was a zealot and he remains a zealot. Now he is zealous for Christ and his gospel. His education under the leading teachers of his day meant he was an expert in his (misguided) understanding of the Old Testament. He would have known it inside out. Re-directed by this new knowledge of Christ his OT knowledge would have formed a formidable basis for expositing the gospel with reference to the OT - as we shall see. And knowing the flawed reading of the OT intimately, he is in prime position to demolish the false reading. The Apostles Peter and John and James, who were all uneducated men, would not have the ability required to write such an essential document. "Under inspiration of God" doesn't mean mere mechanical machine: a mans personality and ability still shines through. For this crucial, legal forensic document, the finest of minds was required.
    - both the persecution and the ending of the Jewish period of feasting resulted in those who had converted to Christianity in Jerusalem returning to their home towns and cities. We have a concentrated lump of Christianity in Jerusalem. A hand grenade is thrown into it, it explodes and scatters the seeds of Christianity over a wider area. And where the seed lands it begins to grow. This was the mechanism of the spread of early Christianity. Acts goes on to detail Paul setting about on a number of missionary journeys around the region in order to establish churchs. His letters: Romans, Corinthians, Ephesians, Galatians, Collossians etc are pastoral letters written either to churchs he had set up himself during those missionary journeys (Corinth and Ephesus for instance) - or to churchs set up by others amongst which, the church in Rome.
    It is no accident that the book of Romans is placed after Acts. From the fours gospels, to the early history to the first and most complete exposition of the gospel doctrine contained within the whole Bible. There is no other book that would fit better in its place. Its position should give us a clue as to its importance. It is in Romans that the foundation is laid for many the sub-issues that hang around the gospel. Other epistles will elaborate and expand on the framework given in Romans - they will not contradict it. The argument (as we shall hopefully see) is finely tuned, continuous, dealing with objections and complete. At least 9 chapters long on one issue - gospel mechanics. It is for this reason we can dispose of other 'gospels' which purport to arise out of verses plucked hither and thither from around the NT. If such gospels were to stand they must first demolish the argument of Romans. But there is no other place in the NT which exposits an alternative gospel in anything approaching this depth. Romans forms a roadblock to anyone prepared to take it on in its entirety
    Paul hasn't set up the church in Rome himself. Nor has he yet visited it at this point (although his final missionary journey will see him travel Rome-wards - as we can read in the latter part of Acts). He is writing to Christians, to folk who have heard the good news of Jesus Christ (probably in Jerusalem during Pentacost). He is writing to inform them of the mechanics of that which saved them so that they may be built up and strengthened in their faith. And presumably that they too can use this knowledge to spread the word there themselves - he will, in the second half of the book (which we won't be looking at) go on to give practical application of the doctrine - for doctrine is a living entity: it is meant to be applied in our lives in a practical way: it encourages, exhorts, admonishes, assures. It is not the stuffy stuff of theology, to be read then placed back on the shelf. Doctrine is meant to be applied.
    TTFN Larni
    Comments/problems?

    GREAT DEBATE: LARNI AND IANO

    Replies to this message:
     Message 5 by AdminAsgara, posted 07-13-2006 12:15 PM iano has not replied

    AdminAsgara
    Administrator (Idle past 2333 days)
    Posts: 2073
    From: The Universe
    Joined: 10-11-2003


    Message 5 of 5 (331485)
    07-13-2006 12:15 PM
    Reply to: Message 4 by iano
    07-13-2006 12:07 PM


    Moved to Message 1

    AdminAsgara Queen of the Universe

    Comments on moderation procedures (or wish to respond to admin messages)? - Go to:
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  • "Columnist's Corner" Forum
  • See also Forum Guidelines, [thread=-19,-112], and [thread=-17,-45]
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    This message is a reply to:
     Message 4 by iano, posted 07-13-2006 12:07 PM iano has not replied

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