Conversion to atheism

That is exactly what I was trying to say, but perhaps better worded. Indeed you worked in how reasoning fits into the strength of democracy. Nice post.

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

Somehow, the word 'convert' conjures up the methods employed by Christian priests, missionaries and soldiers worldwide to persuade indigenous peoples to drop their beliefs and embrace the one and only true religion. With a history like that, one would think present-day Christians might be a tad reticent to talk of 'conversion'.
Having started on a spiritual quest, I found the 'holiness' of believers on Sunday betrayed by their avariciousness the rest of the week. Spouting doctrine and Scriptures never seemed to alter their basic selfishness. Indeed, the whole premise of Christianity is based on procuring an entrance solely for that person into heaven or at least a favoured place.
Repelled by the basic lack of humanity in religion, I eventually became an atheist, free from the chaos and shifting sands of multiple Bible versions, different interpretations of the same passage, and the narrow-mindedness of literalists. It`s like a huge load lifting from my shoulders now I can contemplate the fate of humanity without looking over my shoulder to see if God is watching. My morality is intact, even strengthened by my consideration of the needs of humanity, not the needs of an irascible God. Altruism abounds in fellow atheists without the promise of a reward, I look back at religion like a bunch of squabbling children, each determined to be proved right.
Do I want more to change (not convert) to atheism? Sure, but they have to come at their own speed, as a enquiring mind, not because they feel religion has let them down and seek a new toy to play with.

Sometimes my mother and I (my mother is a Christian) get into conversations about the origins of human life. I often have to let my mother win the argument for the sake of peace. Her religion is her life, and she gets really upset sometimes, because she does not think I will make it into the new kingdom. This is an upsetting position for me, too; I have only recently finished wrestling with the problem of whether to keep on pretending that I believe in creationism, just so that I can make her happy.I am of the opinion that there is no real need to change people’s beliefs. Atheism seems to be propagating itself through cultures, seemingly on its own steam. Although I don’t have exact figures, I am pretty sure that only a few hundred years ago, the vast majority of the British population believed in God. It is surely the case that much fewer Britons believe in God today. How did this come about? We don’t see atheists preaching door to door or anything, I think it’s simply down to people calculating the evidence for themselves. Truth will out, eventually.

Zawinful It is imperative that people be allowed free choice on the issue of whether to believe or not based on those very people adjusting what they need to in order to accomodate new knowledge of things formerly assigned as being the work of god{s}.It is sometimes difficult in dealing with people who honestly feel that they ae somehow failing in their trying to convince you of "the way".I find it less of a concern for myself as an atheist since there is no thing I am trying to convert people to as a matter of "saving" them in some way.It is an consequence of atheism that we cannot even say we will have the last laugh since by our understanding death is the end,and as such no means exist by which we can say "I told you you were wasting your time" as though such a childish taunt was somehow a trophy to flaunt at others.I do,however,take umbrage at sloppy thinking and most especially my own. Life is for learning and I have been the recipient of many wonderful experiences and have been fortunate to see the growth of human beings in positive ways and I do sincerely think that we have improved in many ways.What I think is that the world is suffering from growing pains and the changing of much that humans have taken for granted throughout history.What will be the telling feature of our survival will be the realization that any actions we take in dealing with other nations and people cannot be divorced from ourselves.

My personal view is that you shouldn't pretend to be something you are not. But, at the same time, you shouldn't argue with her about her beliefs. There are somethings that you just leave alone.That is unfortunate and I find it hard to do with my Mum but that is both an honest and kind approach, IMO

Um... are you sure you're not me?Aside from what you said, I believe that theism will eventually die out because people will realize that believing in a deity is like believing in the tooth fairy (neither have any solid or objective evidence for its existence). One is wishful thinking by little kids and the other is wishful thinking by adults.

I don't agree for a few reasons.1) While specific theologies may go belly up (as histories show they do) there really are experiences people have which people feel are related to something bigger, or external to common existence. Whether this is some feeling due to chemicals within the brain is beside the point. People feel things and interpret them, and as long as people have "spiritual" experiences there will always be forms of theism.2) People are actually helped out physically by having something emotional to hang on to, and theism allows an additional bond. As long as people can point to this there will also be reasons for theism to exist... comfort and healing.3) This will seem overtly negative, but it is true: ignorance. Despite a wealth of information at everyone's finger tips pretty much everyone continues to trust in initial beliefs (trying to find whatever opinion to support it as if fact) instead of stopping and evaluating initial beliefs through an objective stance. I am not claiming that this is how all theists begin or stay theists, but it certainly is how many maintain some pretty contradictory positions. And to be fair, plenty of atheists do this as well.This message has been edited by holmes, 01-01-2005 05:06 AM

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

As an atheist, it is my opinion that it is more important to try and educate people as to what is and isn’t science. I’d rather spend my time doing that than spend it trying to destroy ones belief system. Now don’t get me wrong, I am more than willing to defend my beliefs (or lack thereof) but it is never my intention to convert anyone.

I will argue and debate religion (so long as my adversary is not prone to quoting scripture as an answer for everything) till the cows come home, but in a friendly good natured way. Neither converting or being converted. But if I get preached at or the have you let Jesus into your life? Here are some pamphlets that may help then I will feel free to play the game to the max, and try my hardest to convert the ‘would be’ converter. It’s only fair, is it not?I once had the enjoyable good fortune to be stopped by a young fella from the Mormons. He was engaging people by the means of a questionnaire that purported to be something connected to the BBC but turned out to be a way for him to gauge my theological leanings and then lead me to God or congratulate me for already being there In this situation I believed him to be ‘fair game’. I feel I had him on the ropes by the end of the conversation . He had tried his best, I’ll give him that, but he did seem to be showing some distinct signs of distress before this amazing old lady, who happened to be sitting in the there, let him of the hook with some deeply moving stories of her humanitarian work in some really rough foreign places (claimed to know the BBC reporter Kate Aidie) though my little Mormon friend got short shrift from the Lady when he spouted some glib religious platitudes of the mercy of god and his ineffable wisdom, as she claimed she had seen precious little of that out there and she had been looking. I know that may seem cruel and heartless to have taken any satisfaction or enjoyment at his distress at my arguments (as Mormon blokes ‘have’ to go out preaching to finish their indoctrination), but if someone puts themselves in a public place with a mind to preach and convert, then any discomfort they encounter when they meet a mind strong enough to forward a strong argument against theirs deserves no sympathy. As I would expect none if the situation was reversed.It’s not normally worth trying (in earnest) to convert someone. I don’t really want people trying to convert me to theism and most people would take umbrage at me preaching Atheism at them. Fair’s fair. It’s only when both parties are up for a discussion on this subject then a true dialogue can begin. And if one party’s goal in this dialogue is the conversion of the other then they should not be surprised if the other person actively starts to ‘convert back’ rather then simply fend off the conversion attempt.I personally envy some of those who derive great emotional warmth and comfort from their faith because I would love to bask in that warmth. But I can’t. Before now I have been desperate to stand up and claim to want to let Jesus into my life but have physically been unable to do it.I was at a Christian camp (Dare 2) for the sole reason a Christian band I quite like was playing (Eden Burning). I was sitting there with my good friend Paul (a Christian and fellow fan of EB) listening to the music of other groups and the occasional speaker. Just before EB came on this fella came up on stage and started taking about faith and it’s strength and joy and all that. The crowd were being whipped up into a frenzy of adulation and proclamations of their faith. We had been sitting down waiting and during the talk this bloke had encouraged those who had let Jesus in to their lives to stand up and wave their arms and proclaim this good news, also he urged that if we hadn’t then now was a good time to stand up and proclaim that that we wanted to let Jesus in to our lives and if this was the first time then after wards there were people in these tents over there who could guide you through what this meant. The joy happiness, warmth and rapture around me flowed and pulled me. I wanted nothing more than to stand up and proclaim yes this is what I want more then anything but I couldn’t. There was nothing on this earth that could make me stand up at that moment. I remained seated whilst all around me stood and proclaimed their joy in their religion. All I had to do was stand and I could be a part of that. It was that simple, that easy. Despite wanting to be a part of that I could not stand. My limbs were like lead my head hung. Time seemed to slow as ecstatic people jumped , clapped and whooped their joy around me. I was getting more and more angry with myself but I knew it was useless. I knew the reason I couldn’t stand. I knew if I stood it would be a lie. For the sake of the warmth, security and sense of inclusion I so wanted I would have to betray everything I believed to be true. I would become a lie. Before that day all I had done was profess not to believe in god/s and all that. But that weekend, that day, that very moment I realised, for the first time I truly BELIEVED my Atheist views. I turned and , half crawling, ran from that arena out across the camp till I came to rest against a big yellow skip and sat crying with my frustration at not being able to simply stand, and in the realisation that I had just become a confirmed Atheist.It is quite something when someone is granted such a fundamental peek into themselves to truly know what they believe. I know I truly and deeply believe in my Atheist views. They are a core part of me and are part of my strength and being, so if I ever, simply through strength of argument, managed to turn someone from theirs I would feel a deep sense of sadness for their loss. I know this may seem contradictory to my comments about my Mormon friend earlier, but didn’t turn him from his faith. I may have rocked it a bit and if he went a way and thought about it all seriously and thus grew as a person because of that (irrespective of whether or not, upon quiet reflection he kept or lost his faith) then all well and good, that’s what I want. If he had simply crumpled and said, utterly crushed what have I been doing wasting my life on this? and walked a way from his faith on the strength of my argument then I would have wept for him. What right do I have to do that to any one? (Whether they ask for it or not). What right does any one have to do that to any one else?Yes it’s always important to know the truth but what is the truth?Are there benefits form being Atheist? Who knows? Possibly but there are down sides too. For one 95% and more of the world’s population think there is something wrong with you how can you NOT believe in [insert deity of choice]??!!?!. But hey at one time around 100% of the people in the world thought the world was flat, thought the earth was the canter of the universe.. and so on. If the great majority can be wrong about that then what else can they be wrong about.The biggest benefit of Atheism is there is no Dogma, there is no Heresy no banned knowledge, and thus the atheist is free to look at all sides and views and positions and data to reach an informed intelligent conclusion free of dogmatic bias and spin. Whether an atheist reaches a conclusion that IS free of bias and spin is a totally different matter.Anyway I’ve waffled on WAY too long..

No, atheism has a much more efficient system for conversion...it's called public education, in which a purely materialistic explanation is offered as the official "scientific" explanation for how living things came to be, and this "scientific" explanation is shoved down peoples' throats from the time they are in fourth grade (maybe earlier) until the time they graduate high school. Most governments more or less force attendance to these institutions, too. So, a rise in atheism is nearly guaranteed.A 1990 biology text book used by a local high school where I live blathers on and on about how the first cell came to be without a parent cell billions of years ago under circumstances and conditions that apparently do not exist today¹ (an unobserved, really slow, complicated version of spontaneous generation), tucks Louis Pasteur's experiments safely out of students' view deep in the appendices (Louis Pasteur's experiments disproved spontaneous generation and helped biologists to accept the idea that "'all organisms arise only from others of their kind.'")², and, in chapter 1, labels creation science as psuedoscience.³The book says that fish have scales, {added by edit} and that reptiles have "dry, scaly skin." {edit over} That's fine. Then, the book says that birds have "scales modified as feathers" and that mammals have "scales modified as hairs."⁴ To my knowledge, no place in the book demonstrates that feathers or hairs are indeed modified scales. Why wouldn't the book simply say that birds have feathers or that mammals have hairs?In my opinion, it's propaganda mixed in with actual science and people's children are forced to listen to it from "authorities" (the school teachers and textbooks) for about 8 or 9 years (or more); 5 days per week, 180 days per year.Yeah...they don't go door to door...they make all the little kids come to them...or they threaten to take the kids away from the parents (unless they homeschool or send them to a private school -- not viable options for most).Now that's my opinionated 2 cents.

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¹Biological Science: A Molecular Approach. 6th Ed., Heath 1990. pp. 67-86 ²Ibid., Appendix 16A, pp. 747-748. ³Ibid., pp. 15-16. ⁴Ibid., pp. 122-125.This message has been edited by TheLiteralist, 01-02-2005 01:09 AM

TheLiteralist If the facts persuade a person to give up on their beliefs then perhaps the thing they believed in lacks an essential convincing ingredient.You are free to show where the science breaks down but only if you can.So far no one has been succesful.That the materialistic explanation shows evidence and nothing else does speaks volumes to the validity of this view.Perhaps the reason non materialistic arguements fail is because they simply do not exist except within our imagination.Such is the reason for faith as a support for these views since nature is silent on such matters.If you have a problem with nature and her ways perhaps you need to talk it out with her.Good luck.

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My view is that we are apart of a struggle of the ages between good and evil. Lucifer fell and took 1/3 of the angels with him. He caused man to fall in Eden. God's design for us was that we are meant to have free will. He didn't want robots, or he would have made them. Even angels have free will. I believe we are in a spiritual struggle and the badguys goal is to decieve us until we finally croak, that way, we share in the fate that was designed for him.

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Brief, but that's my general opinion of why we are here.

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Goodness, you live in world that is both rather ominous and scary, and which also makes humans and human actions extremely important.Forgive me, but it sounds an awful lot like a child's fairy tale....or a bad hollywood adventure film.This message has been edited by schrafinator, 01-02-2005 08:30 AM

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Probably on the toilet, or refuting Shraff.

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It had to be the first, because you ain't never done the second one.

My optimistic side wants people to go another step forward from realizing that lightning had a natural explanation and not caused by Zeus or that the Sun did not require human sacrifice to travel across the sky. My optimistic side wants people to cling onto something more natural than the immaterial pink unicorn for emotional support. Well, if we're going to have to work with ignorance, might as well indoctrinate the atheist view onto those that choose not to think. I'm joking.For what it's worth, my optimistic side wants people to live on Earth, not Middle Earth.

Hi Nightrain: wow a fellow Aussie. I have to say I think there is a lot of merit in your statement. But I would like to add that these squabbles, are largely a result of individual perspective, and personality. For each of us, I personally think the aim should be to seperate faith, from the practicalities of bigotry, that one finds within some religious factions.Shaz