Right to Life Ethical Considerations

It could be noted that your line of reasoning is based on the premise that the sole reason for sex is procreation.This is clearly not the case, and has not been the case since sex became fun. ...which is likely before the advent of humanity.Consider the couple that chooses not to have a child at all. Should they also choose to remain celibate? This would take away from the relationship, that which sex brings to it. And lets not kid ourselves, in a healthy relationship, sex is important.To suggest major surgery, as opposed to contraception (or even abortion) would be subjecting a person to significantly increased risk to their health, at the expense of what can be termed life, but not a person (if consensus has been reached on this issue).In order for you to argue that even that living "lump of flesh" (as you so tastefully put it) is sacred as life, effectively (or at least without being a bit hypocritical), you would need to be strict fruitarian, someone who eats only that which has naturally fallen off trees and plants.It also needs to be said that not everyone considers pregnancy as such a wonderful thing. Even tho' you do, your feeling this way is quite subjective.

Really? I doubt it.

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Is this how you view the beginning of life? Something to be thrown away when it is not convenient?

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Do you support capital punishment? Are you a pacifist? A vegetarian?If not, then you support the ending of life for lots of reasons.

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The faiure rate of condoms is in the high teens. more than 1 in 10
Implants are the best at 3-6%. That is 1 in 20.
I am not sure about the morning after pill but all other forms are higher than condoms accept you know what.

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A 1/10 average is unintentional?

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Now if you just start out by saying that a fetus is nothing special and sex is worth a 1 in 10 chance of throwing out something pretty useless in the first place I could understand.
To fein genuine concern where there is really only concerne for convenience is another thing all together.

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So, do you suggest that all married couples abstain from all intercourse if they do not want the woman to become pregnant, since no contraceptive method other than abstinence is 100% effective in preventing unwanted pregnancy?

Taters, I am anxious to get a reply to Message #84 in this thread, if you please.

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The original decision to have sex knowing that life will be terminated for convenience.

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This afternoon, I may have fish for lunch, knowing that my decision has resulted in life having been terminated.Difference?Added by edit:I just choose to have spaghetti instead. I wonder if I will get a commendation for "choosing life"?Edited by Chiroptera, : No reason given.

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"These monkeys are at once the ugliest and the most beautiful creatures on the planet./ And the monkeys don't want to be monkeys; they want to be something else./ But they're not."
-- Ernie Cline

We seemed to have a good discussion going that stopped back at Message 40.Is that over?

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Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

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Is that over?

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Yes. You pretty much ended it with:

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"These monkeys are at once the ugliest and the most beautiful creatures on the planet./ And the monkeys don't want to be monkeys; they want to be something else./ But they're not."
-- Ernie Cline

Yes because I was trying to get you to acknowledge what I was really trying to discuss which was criteria for consciousness. I was not trying to anthropomorphize a fetus.Well, whatever. I thought we were having a good back and forth. I didn't realize that I put you off somehow.

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Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

bump for 2ice baked taters

I simply do not believe you. You have demonstrated to me that you feel a choice to have sex comes first. It is much higher on yor list of priorities. You have made much more effort to argue for the adultness and value of the choice to have sex knowing the risk than the value of the begginning of human life. You have made this quite clear. I have not heard you make one statement in defense of the beginning of life or showing that you truly value it. This is not your focus. The beginning of life is your out, not something you take highly seriously. Show me differently.
You value sex ,personal rights, defending people character, and a host of other things far more. It is in everything you have said. Yes. I understand you perfectly. The beginning of human life is low on your list of things you value. Just say what you truly mean clearly.

This would be your take. I however never said that. If there is a "reason" for sex, that is a whole other topic that must be spoken of from the pespective of a higher power.Reasons to have sex are individually based. You have sex and get pleasure, bonding, std's, life, responsibility, abortion.
This topic is simply where one places thier priorities and from what ethical reasoning.1)I have narrowed it down to it's core. What value does one place on the beginning of human life or,2) Does one see it as an inhuman thing to be discarded as such. All other considerations come first.
Crashfrog to me illustrates this view.My position comes from #1 and I have made it clear. My priorities are clear. When considering sex I think that chances of the beginning of life and std's carries more weight than my sexual gratification. Frankly foreplay goes a lot farther in terms of bonding. Std's are a non issue in my relationship. I struck a personal chord when I stated my view that a choice of sex over that of life was imature. If one falls into #2 this should not be offensive at all. Just state that it's not life and it's the end of the conversation. Yes, I agree. Then start ones explanation for thier view from there. It will be the core of the position and all that needs to be stated.
All views are subjective. How they are arived at and where they are motivated from is what we are exploring. I find Crashes view to be one extreme and quite interesting. It embraces and defends life but has no recognition for where life come from. The boundaries have been set in an interesting fashion to that of my own. Crash I am sure sees my view as extreme. Not so. It is human life. We are not discussing anything else. I put it "tastefully" with respect to the value expressed to me. I have not been corected as of yet, If this is the case. No one has spoken of how they value this except crash and I.Edited by 2ice_baked_taters, : No reason given.

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I simply do not believe you. You have demonstrated to me that you feel a choice to have sex comes first. It is much higher on yor list of priorities.

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I don't know what this means.

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You have made much more effort to argue for the adultness and value of the choice to have sex knowing the risk than the value of the begginning of human life.

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Do you oppose IUD's?Do you suggest that we collect and search the menstrual discharge of every sexually active woman of child bearing age since most fertilized eggs do not attach to the uterine wall and are therefore flushed out of the body?After all, those fertilized eggs are "the beginning of human life", are they not?This is the thrid or fourth time I've asked this question. Why do you ignore it?Now, you have also ignored vast swaths of my post, including several more direct questions.The issues you are ignoring are the real substance of the issues.Please answer them.I have reposted them below for your convenience:

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My view of any beginning of a human life has always been something wonderful.

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That's great, but since when must everyone else take "your view" to be "the truth"?

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In the case of rape there is no choice in why life began.

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So you are saying that it is OK to throw away life in the trash if one is raped?

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A mother or couple may not be ready for this and through no fault thier own. Reaons to end the life may be shame, or the knowing the child may have psychological scaring. The mother may be traumatized and not accept the child. In the case of a family the father/companion or other children may not accept the child.

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Well, so what? All of these things may, and do, happen with an unintended pregnancy that is the result of consentual sex.

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The third scanario is one I am painfully familiar with.
When medical considerations arise which put the mothers life in severe risk or the likelyhood that a child will be born with serious medical considerations. I would have given a great many things to have that child. It was a no win situation. It is a choice you live with. Adoption will likely be in the future.

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..and yet there are those who would have chosen to continue with the pregnancy (except for a tubal pregnancy), despite the risks. You chose abortion.So, what you are saying is that you alone are fit to judge what is a good enough reason for everyone who seeks out an abortion.I see. You are the arbiter./snip/And anyway, tubal ligation, while highly effective, is still not 100% foolproof.

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True
Compare it to contraceptives.

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So, do you now agree that married couples should abstain from sex completely if they don't want to have any more children, since even tubal ligations and vasectomies are not 100% effective in preventing unwanted pregnancy?

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It's called law. It's called right to choose. Some see it as the right to choose what happens to ones own body. Others see it as the right to end a life.

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Tell me, do you support capital punishment? Are you a pacifist? Vegetarian?If not, then you support the right to end a life.

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Not so. It is human life.

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So, do you oppose IUD's?Do you suggest that we collect and search the menstrual fluid of all women and girls of child brearing age, since most fertilized eggs fail to implant in the uterus and are therefore dischardged from the woman's body?After all, all of those fertilized eggs are "human life" according to you, correct? How can we not try to save every single human life that we can?Also, do you support the death penalty?Edited by schrafinator, : No reason given.

I personally do not agree with them. I would not be involved with someone who ues them. I do not believe I mentioned anything of the kind. You have twice now.
It appears to be your issue. When the theoretical eggs you speak of are collected and raised into children then we'll talk more. Otherwise your talking theory. I say they did not implant becasue they were not viable. This is a sepparate issue you are welcome to discuss in another forum.

I do find it curious that the mans part is ignored.