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Pressie
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Posts: 1985
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010
Member Rating: 2.7

 (1)
 Message 256 of 370 (826743) 01-09-2018 5:37 AM Reply to: Message 255 by Son Goku01-09-2018 5:19 AM

Yip, and the energy required to "create" wolfram (Tungsten). The maths are just as easy.

(My apologies to Dr Adequate. These maths are easy. First year.)

Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.

Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.

 This message is a reply to: Message 255 by Son Goku, posted 01-09-2018 5:19 AM Son Goku has not yet responded

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6180
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.3

 (1)
 Message 257 of 370 (826749) 01-09-2018 9:54 AM Reply to: Message 252 by Phat01-09-2018 3:14 AM

Re: true premises
Hi Phat,

 Phat writes:Just that statement is enough to blow my mind. If a paperclip could do that, what could my own body itself do?

That is the wrong question Phat.

You should have asked how much energy was required to create your body.

Just like the paperclip.

It took 90,000,000,000,000 Joules of energy to make that paperclip.

That means it took a very, very, very, very huge amount of energy to create this universe and everything in it.

Maybe Son has a formula to tell us exactly the amount of energy that had to be packed into the pin point of energy that created the universe and everything in it.

God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

 This message is a reply to: Message 252 by Phat, posted 01-09-2018 3:14 AM Phat has responded

 Replies to this message: Message 261 by Phat, posted 01-09-2018 11:35 AM ICANT has responded

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6180
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.3

 Message 258 of 370 (826750) 01-09-2018 10:04 AM Reply to: Message 253 by Son Goku01-09-2018 4:15 AM

Re: Eternal power (energy)
Hi Son,

Long time we no argue.

 Son writes:It doesn't need a vacuum, the instanton is an entire four-dimensional history,

I don't have time to look it up at the moment. But if memory serves me right Stephen Hawking said that in a vacuum these particles will appear and when they do they will create a universe just like ours.

I will see if I can find it later. Must pick up one of my church members from the hospital and take them home.

And yes it is a complete universe with four dimensions with imaginary time being in the vertical direction.

 Son writes:It's just a proposal of Hawking's, not a scientifically accepted consensus.

That is not the way it is treated at EvC.

God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

 This message is a reply to: Message 253 by Son Goku, posted 01-09-2018 4:15 AM Son Goku has responded

 Replies to this message: Message 262 by NoNukes, posted 01-09-2018 11:35 AM ICANT has not yet responded Message 273 by Son Goku, posted 01-09-2018 4:23 PM ICANT has responded

ringo
Member
Posts: 16013
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.4

 (1)
 Message 259 of 370 (826758) 01-09-2018 11:15 AM Reply to: Message 248 by Phat01-08-2018 4:13 PM

Re: Jonathan Sarfati, of AIG, accepts General Relitivity (and AIG itself).
Phat writes:

 ringo writes:Which is worse? To wait your whole life without knowing or to spend your whole life being wrong?

They are roughly the same.

What?

Did you read the question at all?

 Phat writes:The time you spend dead is a lot longer than the time you will spend alive.

And if you're wrong your whole life, you're still wrong the whole time you're dead. How is that "roughly the same" as waiting your whole life for evidence without believing in anything?

 Phat writes:Plus I always liked the idea of Pascals Wager

Pascal was Catholic. You've already lost that wager.
 This message is a reply to: Message 248 by Phat, posted 01-08-2018 4:13 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

ringo
Member
Posts: 16013
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.4

 Message 260 of 370 (826759) 01-09-2018 11:20 AM Reply to: Message 251 by ICANT01-09-2018 12:30 AM

Re: true premises
 ICANT writes:Where is the true premise (evidence) for the universe and everything in it existing at the Planck epoch, the size of a pin point before it began to expand?

The expansion of the universe is an observation, not a logical conclusion.
 This message is a reply to: Message 251 by ICANT, posted 01-09-2018 12:30 AM ICANT has not yet responded

Phat
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Posts: 11902
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4

 Message 261 of 370 (826764) 01-09-2018 11:35 AM Reply to: Message 257 by ICANT01-09-2018 9:54 AM

God, Cosmology, & EvC
Trying to keep this within the framework of this topic, which is Who Made God.

Now that we have brought Cosmology, Math, and Physics into this discussion, courtesy of Pastor I CANT, I thought I would add my 2 cents.

However the universe came about, or whether it eternally exists is a question we may never know. What we can agree on is that creation is involved. Some argue that saying god Did It is too simplistic of an explanation and is in fact a non-explanation, but I would argue that a lot depends on the energy and power of the God being described. jar often mentions that many of the gods marketed by believers are petty, picayune despots hardly worthy of a second thought. Others, such as I CANT, undoubtedly imagine the God they believe in to involve massive unmeasureable amounts of energy and that the concept of a grand design (and possibly designer) is hardly insignificant, Picayune, or irrelevant.

One question that we might ask, along the lines of this discussion:

How much energy does it take to imagine God or a god? Is it the same amount of energy required to imagine a bowl of cereal? How much energy does our mind(s) use in internal creativity and reasoning? If we can conceive of a universe without a designer, would it take a similar amount of energy to conceive and attempt to define a designer?

I am talking belief, pantheism and/or monotheism. I am also talking creativity. My argument is basically that either concept can be considered. But again...as I CANT asked, how much energy did it take to create me? Does the energy employed in my thinking about the origin of a universe in any way approximate the actual energy employed in the creation of that universe? Why or why not?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

 This message is a reply to: Message 257 by ICANT, posted 01-09-2018 9:54 AM ICANT has responded

 Replies to this message: Message 264 by Stile, posted 01-09-2018 12:52 PM Phat has not yet responded Message 267 by ICANT, posted 01-09-2018 1:30 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

NoNukes
Inactive Member

 Message 262 of 370 (826765) 01-09-2018 11:35 AM Reply to: Message 258 by ICANT01-09-2018 10:04 AM

Re: Eternal power (energy)
 That is not the way it is treated at EvC.

That is possibly correct. However, most of EvC are not physicists. In large part, folks here are reciting stuff that has been popularized. However, at least they are reciting it correctly, which is something you do only by accident.

Watching you make nonsense statements and requiring several attempts to even make a meaningful statement that is at least wrong is quite humorous. We are all familiar with the Kalam Cosmological argument, which is what your own argument approximates, but we are also familiar with the holes in that argument because by now everyone sees the holes. So we also get to watch you attempt to bluster over those by simply repeating your premise.

Well, you've managed to impress Phat with this technique, but it likely won't work on most other folks here.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I was thinking as long as I have my hands up … they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking — they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

 This message is a reply to: Message 258 by ICANT, posted 01-09-2018 10:04 AM ICANT has not yet responded

 Replies to this message: Message 263 by Phat, posted 01-09-2018 11:41 AM NoNukes has responded

Phat
Member
Posts: 11902
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4

 Message 263 of 370 (826766) 01-09-2018 11:41 AM Reply to: Message 262 by NoNukes01-09-2018 11:35 AM

Re: Eternal power (energy)
Give the Pastor a break! He is learning right along with everyone else. He happens to believe that God created the universe and that it took a lot of energy! Whats so silly about that?

The topic is Who Made God? So who did? Is God a human invention or are we His invention?

In one respect, invoking the name of God is simply giving a personality to the energy involved in what came before the Big Bang. That is hardly a simple discussion.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

 This message is a reply to: Message 262 by NoNukes, posted 01-09-2018 11:35 AM NoNukes has responded

 Replies to this message: Message 265 by jar, posted 01-09-2018 1:10 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply Message 266 by NoNukes, posted 01-09-2018 1:21 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

Stile
Member
Posts: 3352
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 3.9

 Message 264 of 370 (826781) 01-09-2018 12:52 PM Reply to: Message 261 by Phat01-09-2018 11:35 AM

Re: God, Cosmology, & EvC
 Phat writes:How much energy does it take to imagine God or a god?

I don't know. "Some - not all that much."

 Is it the same amount of energy required to imagine a bowl of cereal?

Give or take - yes.
The same amount of energy required to imagine pretty much anything.

 How much energy does our mind(s) use in internal creativity and reasoning?

I don't know. More than imagining just God or just cereal. Less than moving and breathing.

 If we can conceive of a universe without a designer, would it take a similar amount of energy to conceive and attempt to define a designer?

Sure, I guess so.

 But again...as I CANT asked, how much energy did it take to create me?

Maybe a lot.
Maybe not so much.
I don't really see how it matters.

Making a paperclip from existing wire doesn't take much energy. Just a few bends.
Making metal from an exploding star takes much more energy than that contained in a paperclip, or you, or our entire planet.
Does that make an exploding star a God because it took a lot of energy to make metal?

If a universe took a lot of energy to make, why does that matter?
And, of course, it's equally possible that the universe didn't require any energy to be "made" at all... and all it's doing (exploding stars, creating people...) is simply molding the matter that's already here... like bending paperclips.

But the real question is... why does an amount of energy (no matter how large) indicate a God of any sort? I don't see the connection.

I understand how it's impressive.
But I'm impressed by glass-blowing, too.
I don't think glass-blowers are Gods.

 This message is a reply to: Message 261 by Phat, posted 01-09-2018 11:35 AM Phat has not yet responded

 Replies to this message: Message 268 by ICANT, posted 01-09-2018 1:49 PM Stile has responded

jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004

 Message 265 of 370 (826782) 01-09-2018 1:10 PM Reply to: Message 263 by Phat01-09-2018 11:41 AM

Re: Eternal power (energy)
 Phat writes:Give the Pastor a break! He is learning right along with everyone else. He happens to believe that God created the universe and that it took a lot of energy! Whats so silly about that?

Infantile and absurd are closer than just silly.

 Phat writes:The topic is Who Made God? So who did? Is God a human invention or are we His invention?

100% of the evidence shows that humans created God. There is no evidence of God inventing anything.

 Phat writes:In one respect, invoking the name of God is simply giving a personality to the energy involved in what came before the Big Bang. That is hardly a simple discussion.

And that is as meaningless as anything ICANT posts.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

 This message is a reply to: Message 263 by Phat, posted 01-09-2018 11:41 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

NoNukes
Inactive Member

 Message 266 of 370 (826783) 01-09-2018 1:21 PM Reply to: Message 263 by Phat01-09-2018 11:41 AM

Re: Eternal power (energy)
 He happens to believe that God created the universe and that it took a lot of energy! Whats so silly about that?

If you review what I wrote, you will see that I did not question ICANT's beliefs, only his statements of science.

 In one respect, invoking the name of God is simply giving a personality to the energy involved in what came before the Big Bang. That is hardly a simple discussion

Really? Is that what you or anyone else here believes? Or are you just defending some notion that nobody, including you, has put forward?

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I was thinking as long as I have my hands up … they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking — they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

 This message is a reply to: Message 263 by Phat, posted 01-09-2018 11:41 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6180
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.3

 (1)
 Message 267 of 370 (826784) 01-09-2018 1:30 PM Reply to: Message 261 by Phat01-09-2018 11:35 AM

Re: God, Cosmology, & EvC
Hi Phat,

 Phat writes:However the universe came about, or whether it eternally exists is a question we may never know.

Until you can settle the question of whether the universe had a beginning to exist or is eternal you can never form a hypothesis of the cause.

There is no way that the universe could be eternal in the form it is today due to running out of energy.

There is no way it could have a beginning to exist without a cause. that could supply all the energy necessary to produce all the mass in the universe.

I would call that source God.
Stephen Hawkings would call it an instanton proving we do not have a need of God.
Other's have called it the God particle and have spent billions looking for it.

I have always said I believe it has existed eternally in the past just not in the form it is today.

I hold that view as no one can tell me when the beginning was. Moses simply said "In the beginning" There is no way to define that moment, or give evidence of such.

That is not because people have not tried.

I say that the only possible answer is an eternal all powerful source that had infinite power is the source.

I call that eternal source God.
If God is manmade He has no power and we are left with a bunch of fairy tales.

 Phat writes:Others, such as I CANT, undoubtedly imagine the God they believe in to involve massive unmeasureable amounts of energy

I believe in a just, loving God who controls all the energy in the universe. He also has enough energy to create an infinite number of universes as He has infinite power. My God is not the puny god most on this site refer to when they mention god. My God has the ability to stop the earth from turning and you would never know it stopped. Yea I know that sounds silly. But my God has all power which means He can do anything He desires to do. My God has enough power to cause the earth and the universe to disintegrate instantly by just speaking.

I do not serve a little God.

God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

 This message is a reply to: Message 261 by Phat, posted 01-09-2018 11:35 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

 Replies to this message: Message 269 by xongsmith, posted 01-09-2018 3:00 PM ICANT has not yet responded

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6180
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.3

 (1)
 Message 268 of 370 (826785) 01-09-2018 1:49 PM Reply to: Message 264 by Stile01-09-2018 12:52 PM

Re: God, Cosmology, & EvC
Hi Stile,

 Stile writes:I understand how it's impressive. But I'm impressed by glass-blowing, too.I don't think glass-blowers are Gods.

What would you think of a glass-blower if he could produce the material the glass is made of, out of nothing. Simply by speaking it into existence, would you then think he was God.

And you don't think that the statement that all the energy required to create the universe and everything in it was at one time pilled on top of each other in a place the size of a pin point sounds just as impressive and impossible.

God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

 This message is a reply to: Message 264 by Stile, posted 01-09-2018 12:52 PM Stile has responded

 Replies to this message: Message 270 by Stile, posted 01-09-2018 3:11 PM ICANT has not yet responded Message 272 by Taq, posted 01-09-2018 3:51 PM ICANT has not yet responded

xongsmith
Member
Posts: 1865
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009

 Message 269 of 370 (826787) 01-09-2018 3:00 PM Reply to: Message 267 by ICANT01-09-2018 1:30 PM

Re: God, Cosmology, & EvC
ICANT writes

 Other's have called it the God particle and have spent billions looking for it.

wow - how did you miss this? The Higgs boson was only humorously termed the "god particle" by partical physicists who then were misquoted in popular science journals by idiots trying to sell more magazines. It has absolutely nothing to do with God.

- xongsmith, 5.7d

 This message is a reply to: Message 267 by ICANT, posted 01-09-2018 1:30 PM ICANT has not yet responded

Stile
Member
Posts: 3352
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 3.9

 Message 270 of 370 (826789) 01-09-2018 3:11 PM Reply to: Message 268 by ICANT01-09-2018 1:49 PM

Re: God, Cosmology, & EvC
 ICANT writes:What would you think of a glass-blower if he could produce the material the glass is made of, out of nothing. Simply by speaking it into existence, would you then think he was God.

Yes.
Whether or not He's worthy of respect would be another question. But, in a word, yes.
And if no one ever does it, I will think that God does not exist.

 And you don't think that the statement that all the energy required to create the universe and everything in it was at one time pilled on top of each other in a place the size of a pin point sounds just as impressive and impossible.

No, I don't.

Creating things by "speaking them into existence" seems a lot more impressive than "pilling things on top of each other (but not creating or destroying any of them)."

One I can't do at all, and no one has any evidence of it ever being done. Anywhere. By any one or any thing.
The other I can do a bit myself, and there's plenty of evidence that the natural universe is much better at it than I am.

Edited by Stile, : Fixing quote

 This message is a reply to: Message 268 by ICANT, posted 01-09-2018 1:49 PM ICANT has not yet responded

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