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Author Topic:   Trilobite, Eyewitness to Evolution
jar
Member
Posts: 30849
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 16 of 25 (828443)
02-17-2018 8:30 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Faith
02-17-2018 7:59 PM


Re: Bonfire Of The Vanities
Faith writes:

Since God created everything, by your reasoning nobody should ever get any of it wrong, but we get things wrong all the time and the history of science certainly shows that.

No, that is not my reasoning and once again you are simply wrong; as wrong as the Bible is when it comes to reality.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Faith, posted 02-17-2018 7:59 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 1701
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 4.6


(1)
Message 17 of 25 (828444)
02-17-2018 9:04 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Faith
02-17-2018 7:59 PM


Re: Bonfire Of The Vanities
No, I'm talking about literally asking God to guide our understanding. In my experience it makes a big difference.

We have seen from your participation here at EvC that your understanding of every single scientific subject you have argued about is not only miniscule, but completely incorrect.

If God is guiding your understanding you should ask for your money back.

I posted this information about a book that I really enjoyed and learned a lot from. If you don't want to read it or don't want to learn anything that's fine, but the subject has nothing to do with your god.


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Faith, posted 02-17-2018 7:59 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by Faith, posted 02-17-2018 9:39 PM Tanypteryx has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 29564
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 18 of 25 (828445)
02-17-2018 9:39 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Tanypteryx
02-17-2018 9:04 PM


Re: Bonfire Of The Vanities
Your idea of where I'm wrong is of course where I disagree with the establishment view, and your idea of my "learning something" is of course to come to agree with the establishment view. I don't know what book you are talking about* but I've read plenty of books. God works on the knowledge we have, and if that knowledge is wrong, which a lot of it is on the establishment side as well as the creationist side, God is happy to show us if we ask. He can't correct everything at once, not because of any deficiency in Him, but because of our limited minds, so errors are going to remain.

*Sorry, you mean the book about trilobites. I'm sure it has a lot of interesting information about trilobites that I COULD learn from, but I'm also sure that they don't prove evolution at all, they are merely subsumed under evolution as everything else is. Their changes from supposed time period to time period are on the order of everyday microevolution that occurs quite rapidly, within observable time frames. Millions of years is a ridiculous assumption based on the ToE.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Tanypteryx, posted 02-17-2018 9:04 PM Tanypteryx has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by Coyote, posted 02-17-2018 9:59 PM Faith has responded

    
Coyote
Member (Idle past 3 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 19 of 25 (828446)
02-17-2018 9:59 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Faith
02-17-2018 9:39 PM


Re: Bonfire Of The Vanities
Millions of years is a ridiculous assumption based on the ToE.

Spin it as you like, but millions of years is a conclusion based on physical evidence. Most is based on the physical sciences such as nuclear chemistry etc., not on the theory of evolution.

The theory of evolution is derived in part from that evidence from the physical sciences.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Faith, posted 02-17-2018 9:39 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Faith, posted 02-17-2018 10:40 PM Coyote has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 29564
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 20 of 25 (828447)
02-17-2018 10:40 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Coyote
02-17-2018 9:59 PM


Re: Bonfire Of The Vanities
The thing is the debate about evolution vs creationism is mostly about how the evidence is interpreted. Both sides point to the same evidence in many cases. I look at the diagrams that show the different kinds of trilobites placed in the fossil record and I see microevolution because of my understanding of the degree of change normal to microevolution; evolution sees millions of years and macroevolution because of other factors that have accumulated around the fossil record, Old Earth, and the other sciences you mention etc.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Coyote, posted 02-17-2018 9:59 PM Coyote has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by Coyote, posted 02-18-2018 12:04 AM Faith has responded

    
Coyote
Member (Idle past 3 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 21 of 25 (828450)
02-18-2018 12:04 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by Faith
02-17-2018 10:40 PM


Re: Bonfire Of The Vanities
The thing is the debate about evolution vs creationism is mostly about how the evidence is interpreted. Both sides point to the same evidence in many cases.

I understand that. But you must understand that of a wide range of interpretations, not all are of equal value.

Those which account for all of the relevant evidence, and are contradicted by no relevant evidence are superior to interpretations that do not account for all the relevant evidence and that are contradicted by large amounts of evidence.

That is the case we have here. It is only by denying and "what-iffing" a lot of evidence that you pretend to make it go away, and so hold to an interpretation that is contradicted by so much evidence.

So your argument about different interpretations fails. You might as well hold to the "interpretation" that the moon is made of green cheese. Its an interpretation about as strong as is the creationist interpretation of real-world evidence.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Faith, posted 02-17-2018 10:40 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by Faith, posted 02-18-2018 12:53 AM Coyote has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 29564
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 22 of 25 (828451)
02-18-2018 12:53 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by Coyote
02-18-2018 12:04 AM


Re: Bonfire Of The Vanities
Logical point, but I disagree. I do not think the evidence on the evolution side is all that good, I think I've answered a lot of it over time myself, it's just the accumulation of opinion that convinces people, or even just the habit of accepting it, not the actual merit of the evidence.

For instance I think the idea that it could have been millions of years between two different kinds of trilobites is is nonsensical, but it would take more energy to make the case than I want to try to muster right now.I think the whole idea that you could get from the reptile ear to the mammalian ear is also nonsensical. The necessary increments of change, the multiple trial variations that would have to have occurred are actually simply impossible even if you had thirty billion years. But that is a problem for evolution in general, not any particular comparison of fossils in the fossil record.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Coyote, posted 02-18-2018 12:04 AM Coyote has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by Tanypteryx, posted 02-18-2018 2:05 AM Faith has responded

    
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 1701
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 23 of 25 (828452)
02-18-2018 2:05 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by Faith
02-18-2018 12:53 AM


Re: Bonfire Of The Vanities
For instance I think the idea that it could have been millions of years between two different kinds of trilobites is is nonsensical, but it would take more energy to make the case than I want to try to muster right now.

So, like always, you don't read a book on Trilobites, you just spread around a bunch of BS, and, as always, cannot support anything you say with evidence and, as always, you don't have the energy to bother.

Then why don't you piss off, since you don't have the energy to bother? Who gives a shit what you can't be bothered to say? No meaningful argument but you just can't shut up.


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Faith, posted 02-18-2018 12:53 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Faith, posted 02-18-2018 8:38 AM Tanypteryx has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 29564
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 24 of 25 (828453)
02-18-2018 8:38 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by Tanypteryx
02-18-2018 2:05 AM


Re: Bonfire Of The Vanities
Ya know, there's no point in reading a book on trilobites as far as the debate goes, though it may be interesting in itself. I'd just have to read around the evolutionist assumptions since I don't have any ambition any more to waste my breath on arguing to deaf ears. I've spelled out my arguments so many times I'm tired. So what? It's usually a side issue in a thread anyway. I'm challenged or asked questions so I answer them briefly so at least my view is sketched out, and that's all I'm up to. Nobody ever gives them a fair read anyway so why make the effort to think them through for the umpteenth time? I'll save them for a more concerted presentation at a later time and probably somewhere else. But somebody else might see the logic of it even if I don't spell it out. Not too likely I must admit, in this atmosphere which is so beautifully represented by you in this post, but you never know. Abusive ad hominems are SO EvC.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Tanypteryx, posted 02-18-2018 2:05 AM Tanypteryx has not yet responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 11151
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 25 of 25 (828456)
02-18-2018 11:06 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Tanypteryx
12-22-2017 11:35 PM


Back To Topic Starter
This topic has drifted off of its moorings and floated down the Hudson.
Lets get back to it.
quote:
I recently read Trilobite, Eyewitness to Evolution by Richard Fortey, 2001. I found it to be a delightful read and I learned all sorts of new things about these fascinating fossil creatures and the worlds they inhabited for 300 million years. Many thousands of species have been described and more are being discovered every year.
Trilobites have played a major role in paleontology and have been used as index fossils correlating the ages of geological layers around the globe.

They range in size from larger than lobsters to only a couple millimeters in length. As would be expected in a group that lasted that long the amount of variation is staggering; all the way from blind to calcium carbonate crystal for lenses in the faceted eyes, from plain and unadorned to covered with all sorts and shapes of spines.

Fortey writes as much about the world they live in as about the trilobites themselves, the other sorts of life they shared the seas with. He uses his own experiences on expeditions of discovery around the world to tell the stories of the fossils and the types and locations of geological formations they are found in today and what those habitats were like when these creatures lived.

He was a contemporary with Gould and Eldredge and describes how Eldredge's study of trilobites led him to the concept of Punctuated Equilibrium. He also explains Gould's errors in Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of History in a way I had never understood before.

Fortey tells an engrossing tale and describes the same excitement of discovery that I have experienced and observed in my colleagues in the study of dragonflies.

I can recommend this book to anyone looking for an interesting read this winter.



Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Tanypteryx, posted 12-22-2017 11:35 PM Tanypteryx has not yet responded

  
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