clearing up

Mike, What Kingdom?Mark

Are we picking on the believer again? I don't see that Mike The Wiz has a requirement to predicate his beliefs on iron-clad logic or points that make perfect sense to everybody, just as scientists don't have to predicate their beliefs on any component of faith. Now, if Mike were talking about the real world, asking him to predicate on rationality and observation would make sense. But Mike's talking about stuff that, if it exists, doesn't exist in the material world. So who says it has to make perfect sense?I guess I'm on your side, here, Mike. When it's Creationism Vs. Evolution, points have to make sense because we're talking about the natural world. But when it's Believers Vs. Atheists, logic and rationality need not enter into it for all participants.

Thanks Crashfrog, I really apreciate that. I agree we shouldn't have to answer every little qeury people have. One thing I do hate is that people automatically think i should have answers to everything, they forget, I am not claiming to be God, I am only admitting to believing in him.
I guess the others missed all of message 1, (take no offence)

The kingdom of God, as spoke of in the Gospel.

Well, since you've consistently avoided being a knowingly arrogant and condecending believer, as so many are, I don't feel that there's a need to pick on you.Wise, on the other hand, deserves all the picking on he can get. If I believed in God I'd be embarassed that Wise did, too.

'Yes I now the truth which means you dont! Just jokin.'lol. at least your lightening up.'God does a good thing by healing a disease or illness that he gave that person anyway?'Well, I personally think that is a big misconception. Didn't someone accuse Jesus of being of the devil, and his response was similar to : a kingdom divided against itself will fall. if God gives diseases and bad things, why does he take them away? that would mean he is divided against himself, ask yourself who is the bad guy really? - I am sure it will come to you!

'Well, since you've consistently avoided being a knowingly arrogant and condecending believer, as so many are,'That's a shame that you have had to suffer these people, I hope it doesn't turn you cynical.lol'Wise, on the other hand, deserves all the picking on he can get'You've caught me out a bit there Crash, I havent been attending regularly enough to know what he has said, I will have to catch up![This message has been edited by mike the wiz, 09-14-2003]

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But when it's Believers Vs. Atheists, logic and rationality need not enter into it for all participants.

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I'm not picking on anybody. These are serious questions I've never had answered.I think its absurd to say logic and rationality should be left out of the debate. How can we ever assess the truthfulness of the claim?Can I not point out that 4 doesn't equal 3 in a debate if the person has faith? Or that a certain belief leads to absurd conclusions?JustinC[This message has been edited by JustinCy, 09-14-2003]

If you're in a debate about math, yes, point that out. But if we're talking about things that don't exist in the physical world, then 4 not equalling three may very well be a major component of their belief system. You're welcome to try. But keep in mind that the person you're talking to may very well respond with "yes, it is absurd. But it's also true."If you're not prepared to accept that as their position, then the debate is going to be fruitless for you.

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If you're in a debate about math, yes, point that out. But if we're talking about things that don't exist in the physical world, then 4 not equalling three may very well be a major component of their belief system.

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Yeah, I don't care if they believe it. As long as they acknowledge its contradictory (I'm not saying Christianity is contradictory).It would be like Pike showing Plantinga that freewill and omniscience are incompatible, and Plantinga saying, "Yeah, sure it is. But I still hold that they aren't" Ok...that's fine, whatever they want.

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You're welcome to try. But keep in mind that the person you're talking to may very well respond with "yes, it is absurd. But it's also true."

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I'd be willing to accept this.JustinC