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Member (Idle past 6384 days) Posts: 989 From: Leicester, UK Joined: |
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Author | Topic: The gentic inheritance of sin - if it is true what are the consequences? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
MangyTiger Member (Idle past 6384 days) Posts: 989 From: Leicester, UK Joined: |
The following is a copy of this message:
Faith writes: Why have a virgin give birth when there is a much more tried and true method of doing that ...?
I agree with your overall point by the way, but just had to answer this: The reason Jesus was virgin-born was that He was God as well as man, so he got his genes straight from God rather than from a human father; and there is another reason as well, in that the Savior could not BE the Savior if he had ordinary inheritance from a human father, because we all inherit the sin of Adam that way, and Jesus had to be free of that inherited sin from the fathers in order to be the unblemished Lamb of God, without any sin at all, who took on the sins of believers.
EDIT: Since this is off topic and there may not be enough for a new PNT, and jar's answer doesn't seem very conducive to serious discussion, I'll add here that I may have always had a wrong idea about the virgin birth in that I assumed that Mary's genes were given to Jesus, simply because the Holy Spirit "conceived" Jesus within her. But I found at least one website that says that Jesus is considered to have been created new altogether by God, with no inherited genes at all -- the way Adam was originally formed. This makes sense. I had been under some misimpression that sin may only be inherited from the father, even though if I think about it I know that can't be true. So the point I'm trying to make here has to be made somewhat differently but it's still the same point. Jesus HAD to be virgin born for a practical reason -- AND born without genetic inheritance from his parents -- because sin is inherited and He had to be the perfect man, completely sinless, just as Adam was originally sinless.
In this message Faith introduces a concept I have never heard of before (maybe I just don't get out enough ), namely that the mechanism for the biblical inheritance of sin is the standard genetic inheritance mechanism that we get things like the colour of our eyes and hair from. In other words - at least as far as I can tell - Faith is saying that the inherited sin we get from Adam is actually present in our DNA. For the purpose of this thread I'm just going to accept this at face value - maybe we can discuss the scientific and/or Biblical support or lack thereof later or in another thread (because I'm sure there's lots to say about it!). The reason I'm accepting the concept is that it raises the most astonishing possibility if you follow it through to a very possible conclusion and I just wanted to throw it out there for discussion. If our inherited sin is phsically contained in our DNA then I cannot see why we should not expect to identify the gene or genes that code for this sin (for want of a better phrase) at some time in the future, if for no other reason that eventually - and it may be a long way in the future - we will have worked out what every gene in our genome does. Although it is currently beyond our technical capabilities I would further expect that at some point in the (not too?) distant future we will be able to perform genetic manipulation to remove or turn off these sin genes. After all, ultimately they are just DNA like any other gene if they are in our genome. Just to make sure nobody missed it - we could use genetic engineering to remove sin from humanity - at least the inherited variety. This would mean babies born with this genetic modification would be, to quote Faith:
completely sinless, just as Adam was originally sinless. Now I don't actually believe in Faith's concept of sin being inherited at the genetic level, but if for the purpose of this thread it is accepted as being true then is there any reason why the scenario I have constructed isn't valid? What other consequences might there be? Never put off until tomorrow what you can put off until the day after
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
I think probably this is a semantic problem mostly. I believe that sin has *consequences* at the genetic level, and that is what is inherited -- infirmities of one sort or another, and the inexorable tendency toward death. Sin itself is no doubt inherited some other way, but it is I believe pretty specifically inherited, people inheriting specific sin propensities of various ancestors as well as the consequences thereof. It's all tied together in the inheritance package somehow though.
In the case of Jesus, He inherited no sin or any possibility of death because His physical body was made from scratch just as Adam's was, and He had no human ancestry from which to inherit anything in the way of sin spiritually either. I'm sure there's more to it but this gets into the realm of the mysterious. Even if one could identify the results of sin in the genome (hey it's got to be 98% of the genome by now), and could correct those effects, maybe we could be given a longer life span, but you'd never eradicate sin itself and that would keep operating to undo all the corrections you could make in the physical makeup. {Edit: It isn't like there would be "a gene or genes" for inherited sin. The idea is that sin, or more accurately, its effects, would be inherited as damage to all kinds of genes. It seems to me there would have to be some logic to which ones and what kind of damage, but I doubt we would ever be able to figure it out.} Edited by Faith, : noted in text Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Larni Member Posts: 4000 From: Liverpool Joined: |
In the case of Jesus, He inherited no sin or any possibility of death because His physical body was made from scratch just as Adam's was, and He had no human ancestry from which to inherit anything in the way of sin spiritually either. So, If we created in a lab (similar to a clone) a human being from scratch (difficult but animal genes have no sin) we could be free of sin that way. So a being that looked and thought of itself as human (but not quite on a genetic level) would be free of all the problems bought about by sin because it would not be a full son or daughter of Adam.
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Larni Member Posts: 4000 From: Liverpool Joined: |
Great idea mate.
We could uses our science to boot the xian god out of the equation.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
In order to build such a human being, you'd have to know what the genome looked like in Adam or in Jesus Christ and this you do not know. And although animals have no sin, because God cursed the entire creation for our sake, they too have become subject to genetic deterioration.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
We could uses our science to boot the xian god out of the equation. Once again I must marvel at how well the Bible recognizes the heart of the unbeliever:
Psa 2:1-4 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing? The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, [saying], Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us. He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.
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iano Member (Idle past 1971 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: |
In the case of Jesus, He inherited no sin or any possibility of death because His physical body was made from scratch just as Adam's was, and He had no human ancestry from which to inherit anything in the way of sin spiritually either. I'm sure there's more to it but this gets into the realm of the mysterious. It is an interesting area. Jesus born without the spiritual genes of fallen Adam - okay. But it would seem that in order to be tempted by Satan, temptation had to be possible. And for temptation to be possible it needs to be able to attach itself to something. Jesus rejected the temptation and obeyed the law - but where do you suppose the latching mechanism was. I see temptation as resting in a sort of limbo area within us until we decide to pick it up and go with it - thus transferring it into the realm of sin As someone said of temptation recently: you can't stop a crow flying over your head - but you can stop him nesting in your hair
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Larni Member Posts: 4000 From: Liverpool Joined: |
Hmmm. What I meant was that we could tinker with animal genes to replicate our own without the faults (death).
If sin is not part of the genes per se but our genes are affected by sin in some supernatural way (resulting in Death) the resulting humaniform animal (with all the good points of a true human but in no way connected with Adam or Eve) would be free of sin. We could repopulate the world with humanity's children into a world from of sin.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Seems to me temptation would be possible for Jesus just as it was for Adam. Same exact situation. If Jesus was given a perfect genome just as Adam was, although Adam was tempted and fell, Jesus could certainly be tempted too, and not fall. Was this because He is God as well as man?
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Larni Member Posts: 4000 From: Liverpool Joined: |
Faith writes: Psa 2:1-4 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing? If your god had not invented sin we would not have this problem. The way I see it, trying to save humanitiy's children from sin and free from celestial tyranny is an aim every parent should endevour to achieve. By parent I mean the current generation. By children I mean the humaniform animals I propose create that are free from celestial tyranny. No sin? In to heaven you go. Hurrah!
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Brian Member (Idle past 4989 days) Posts: 4659 From: Scotland Joined: |
Jesus could certainly be tempted too, and not fall. Given that we have very little information about Jesus it is perfectly possible that He did sin. But, even in the Gospels it is relatively easy to find Jesus telling lies, for example: John 14:13-14 And whatever you ask in my name, I will do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask anything of me in my name, I will do it. A quite blatant and easily demonstrable lie. There are many other example of Jesus telling untruths, but I suppose one sin is evidence enough. Brian.
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Legend Member (Idle past 5036 days) Posts: 1226 From: Wales, UK Joined: |
let's not forget the infamous end-of-the-world prophecy on the mount of Olives and how it would happen in this generation (Mar 13:30, Mat 24:34).
No wonder the early Christians expected him to come back in their lifetime. "In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."
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Quetzal Member (Idle past 5902 days) Posts: 3228 Joined: |
Hey mangy,
Just to make sure nobody missed it - we could use genetic engineering to remove sin from humanity - at least the inherited variety. I don't think genetic engineering is the key, especially if we accept Faith's clarification that it's the effects, rather than "sin genes" that are inherited. Obviously, based on her explanation, sin is related to telomere shortening - the cellular effect that ultimately leads to senescence and cell death. Nanotechnology, rather than genetic engineering, may be the ticket. If we figure out a way to rebuild our telomeres (without igniting a cancer explosion through simply reactivating TERT or hTR telomerases), we'll have the same effect as if we had "eaten of the tree of life" before getting booted out of the bar. No death = no sin. Life is good!
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
This is an astounding statement from several perspectives. First it says that God is nothing but flesh and blood, just another critter that can pass on genes.
Second it implies that the strange idea of Original Sin is not passed down through women, but only men, that it is only the sins of the fathers that is at issue. Somehow that seems to imply that fadder sins don't get passed to daughter but only sons. So I'm curious. If God is just another bit of gene contributing protoplasm, how is he any different than any other guy screwing a virgin? If there really is some Original sin, why is it not equally from Adam and Eve, and passed down by both mother and father? Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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