Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 64 (9164 total)
4 online now:
Newest Member: ChatGPT
Post Volume: Total: 916,902 Year: 4,159/9,624 Month: 1,030/974 Week: 357/286 Day: 13/65 Hour: 1/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   God is evil if He has miracles and does not use them.
ringo
Member (Idle past 441 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 136 of 390 (750575)
02-18-2015 12:03 PM
Reply to: Message 134 by frako
02-18-2015 11:58 AM


Re: evil is slippery
frako writes:
They spontaneously combust moments after death....
So you're changing the laws of physics too.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by frako, posted 02-18-2015 11:58 AM frako has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8564
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 137 of 390 (750583)
02-18-2015 2:41 PM
Reply to: Message 133 by ringo
02-18-2015 10:55 AM


Excellent! Excellent, Frankie!
There are some things that can't be done simultaneously even if you are omnipotent.
You and I certainly can't, but are you so sure about an omnipotent being?
Who are we to say such a being cannot accomplish two contradictory, mutually-exclusive, simultaneous tasks? Do you know of any hyper-intelligent pan-dimensional beings, other than Benjy and Frankie, who cannot do such things? When one can surf on multiple inter-dimensional rifts through the various multiverses and beyond in an instant of time does such a concept as "simultaneous" even exist?
Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by ringo, posted 02-18-2015 10:55 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 138 by ringo, posted 02-19-2015 10:42 AM AZPaul3 has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 441 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 138 of 390 (750615)
02-19-2015 10:42 AM
Reply to: Message 137 by AZPaul3
02-18-2015 2:41 PM


Re: Excellent! Excellent, Frankie!
AZPaul3 writes:
When one can surf on multiple inter-dimensional rifts through the various multiverses and beyond in an instant of time does such a concept as "simultaneous" even exist?
You're re-defining omnipotence.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by AZPaul3, posted 02-18-2015 2:41 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 139 by AZPaul3, posted 02-19-2015 4:07 PM ringo has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8564
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 139 of 390 (750630)
02-19-2015 4:07 PM
Reply to: Message 138 by ringo
02-19-2015 10:42 AM


Re: Excellent! Excellent, Frankie!
quote:
All confess that God is omnipotent; but it seems difficult to explain in what His omnipotence precisely consists: for there may be doubt as to the precise meaning of the word 'all' when we say that God can do all things. If, however, we consider the matter aright, since power is said in reference to possible things, this phrase, 'God can do all things,' is rightly understood to mean that God can do all things that are possible; and for this reason He is said to be omnipotent.
It is sometimes objected that this aspect of omnipotence involves the contradiction that God cannot do all that He can do; but the argument is sophistical; it is no contradiction to assert that God can realize whatever is possible, but that no number of actualized possibilities exhausts His power. Omnipotence is perfect power, free from all mere potentiality. Hence, although God does not bring into external being all that He is able to accomplish, His power must not be understood as passing through successive stages before its effect is accomplished. The activity of God is simple and eternal, without evolution or change. The transition from possibility to actuality or from act to potentiality, occurs only in creatures. When it is said that God can or could do a thing, the terms are not to be understood in the sense in which they are applied to created causes, but as conveying the idea of a Being possessed of infinite unchangeable power, the range of Whose activity is limited only by His sovereign Will.
- St. Thomas Aquinas, OP, The Summa Theologica of St. Thomas Aquinas, Second and Revised Edition, 1920, translated by the Fathers of the English Dominican Province
You're re-defining omnipotence.
Not at all.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by ringo, posted 02-19-2015 10:42 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 140 by ringo, posted 02-20-2015 10:49 AM AZPaul3 has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 441 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 140 of 390 (750660)
02-20-2015 10:49 AM
Reply to: Message 139 by AZPaul3
02-19-2015 4:07 PM


Re: Excellent! Excellent, Frankie!
AZPaul3 writes:
ringo writes:
You're re-defining omnipotence.
Not at all.
Your own quote from St. Thomas Aquinas seems to agree with me:
quote:
... since power is said in reference to possible things, this phrase, 'God can do all things,' is rightly understood to mean that God can do all things that are possible....
While it may be, as Aquinas continues, that what is impossible for us is possible for God, it is still not possible for God to do and not do the same thing at the same time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by AZPaul3, posted 02-19-2015 4:07 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 141 by Jon, posted 02-20-2015 11:15 AM ringo has replied
 Message 143 by AZPaul3, posted 02-20-2015 12:52 PM ringo has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 141 of 390 (750661)
02-20-2015 11:15 AM
Reply to: Message 140 by ringo
02-20-2015 10:49 AM


Re: Excellent! Excellent, Frankie!
it is still not possible for God to do and not do the same thing at the same time.
Unless it is.
But in my opinion, the whole idea of what is and is not possible for a god to do misses the point that no god really has any business in deciding the fates of creatures that are supposed to be autonomous and free.
It is the god who does get involved at his own whim and to suit his own feelings of right/wrong and impose them on others that is evil, not the god who keeps his nose out of where it does not belong.
Edited by Jon, : No reason given.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by ringo, posted 02-20-2015 10:49 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 142 by ringo, posted 02-20-2015 11:35 AM Jon has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 441 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 142 of 390 (750662)
02-20-2015 11:35 AM
Reply to: Message 141 by Jon
02-20-2015 11:15 AM


Re: Excellent! Excellent, Frankie!
Jon writes:
ringo writes:
it is still not possible for God to do and not do the same thing at the same time.
Unless it is.
We have to look at it from the human viewpoint: God can't please the rape victim and the rapist at the same time - not to mention the people who think she should be raped and the people who think she shouldn't.
Jon writes:
But in my opinion, the whole idea of what is and is not possible for a god to do misses the point that no god really has any business in deciding the fates of creatures that are supposed to be autonomous and free.
I don't think either omnipotence or free will are very useful concepts. They certainly don't mix well.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by Jon, posted 02-20-2015 11:15 AM Jon has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 144 by Taq, posted 02-20-2015 1:13 PM ringo has replied
 Message 145 by AZPaul3, posted 02-20-2015 1:15 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied
 Message 151 by Stile, posted 02-23-2015 9:57 AM ringo has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8564
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 143 of 390 (750665)
02-20-2015 12:52 PM
Reply to: Message 140 by ringo
02-20-2015 10:49 AM


Re: Excellent! Excellent, Frankie!
quote:
The transition from possibility to actuality or from act to potentiality, occurs only in creatures. When it is said that God can or could do a thing, the terms are not to be understood in the sense in which they are applied to created causes, but as conveying the idea of a Being possessed of infinite unchangeable power, the range of Whose activity is limited only by His sovereign Will.
While it may be, as Aquinas continues, that what is impossible for us is possible for God, it is still not possible for God to do and not do the same thing at the same time.
Unless he wants to.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by ringo, posted 02-20-2015 10:49 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 146 by ringo, posted 02-22-2015 1:20 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 144 of 390 (750666)
02-20-2015 1:13 PM
Reply to: Message 142 by ringo
02-20-2015 11:35 AM


Re: Excellent! Excellent, Frankie!
We have to look at it from the human viewpoint: God can't please the rape victim and the rapist at the same time - not to mention the people who think she should be raped and the people who think she shouldn't.
If that is the twisted moral argument that you have to make, I think it illustrates just how bad the argument is. If God is just, then he wouldn't please the rapist.
The problem is that God is capricious. God will destroy an entire population for rape in one instance, and do nothing in the other. The Bible describes God coming to the aid of the rape victim, the person who is ill, and the other miracles. So why do so in some instances, but not others? In the end, our world appears to be the same as one where God does nothing.
What it boils down to is the dragon that lives in Sagan's garage. If there is no difference between God existing and not existing, then why say that God exists?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by ringo, posted 02-20-2015 11:35 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 147 by ringo, posted 02-22-2015 1:24 PM Taq has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8564
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 145 of 390 (750667)
02-20-2015 1:15 PM
Reply to: Message 142 by ringo
02-20-2015 11:35 AM


Re: Excellent! Excellent, Frankie!
We have to look at it from the human viewpoint:
There is no human viewpoint vis-a-vis the (supposed) powers of truly omnipotent gods. Just ask the believers.
Aquinas probably truly believed his own views even though we both know he was blowing it out his ass as all priests must but he is one of the foremost theologians in humanity and, not being an expert on this crap, I will defer to Aquinas' opinion on what omnipotence means for his god rather than your more limited view.
I don't think either omnipotence or free will are very useful concepts. They certainly don't mix well.
Since omnipotence is a myth and free will an illusion I will agree with you the two do not play well together.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by ringo, posted 02-20-2015 11:35 AM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 441 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 146 of 390 (750781)
02-22-2015 1:20 PM
Reply to: Message 143 by AZPaul3
02-20-2015 12:52 PM


Re: Excellent! Excellent, Frankie!
AZPaul3 writes:
Unless he wants to.
If you're that desperate to define God as evil, have it your way.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by AZPaul3, posted 02-20-2015 12:52 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 148 by AZPaul3, posted 02-22-2015 9:54 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 441 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 147 of 390 (750782)
02-22-2015 1:24 PM
Reply to: Message 144 by Taq
02-20-2015 1:13 PM


Re: Excellent! Excellent, Frankie!
Taq writes:
If there is no difference between God existing and not existing, then why say that God exists?
I didn't say anything about God existing. We're talking about a hypothetical God and the nature of "evil".
Evil is thoroughly subjective. What's evil to you is not evil to a rapist or to God.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by Taq, posted 02-20-2015 1:13 PM Taq has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8564
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 148 of 390 (750816)
02-22-2015 9:54 PM
Reply to: Message 146 by ringo
02-22-2015 1:20 PM


Re: Excellent! Excellent, Frankie!
If you're that desperate to define God as evil, have it your way.
No desperation. His book shows his evil easily enough without our hypotheticals.
But, hey, thank you. Now maybe we can agree on something from reality.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by ringo, posted 02-22-2015 1:20 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 159 by Jon, posted 02-23-2015 10:29 AM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied
 Message 160 by ringo, posted 02-23-2015 10:46 AM AZPaul3 has replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 149 of 390 (750836)
02-23-2015 9:46 AM
Reply to: Message 121 by jar
02-17-2015 9:51 AM


Re: evil is slippery
jar writes:
Need I expand or explain anything more for you or is that sufficient?
No, that is a fine explanation.
It simply means that God does not care. Which is an explanation I offered in the beginning.
By God "caring" I mean the basic definition:
-God is involved in our lives (our society, our culture, our feelings, our emotions of the time)
-God wants to help (again, help in the way our society, our culture, our feelings and our emotions of the time would suggest).
I agree with you that if God doesn't care, He wouldn't do anything.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by jar, posted 02-17-2015 9:51 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 154 by jar, posted 02-23-2015 10:12 AM Stile has replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 150 of 390 (750837)
02-23-2015 9:51 AM
Reply to: Message 125 by jar
02-17-2015 12:20 PM


Re: Can there be an Evil God?
jar writes:
While so far I have not found any of the arguments supposed to show evil gods in this thread convincing...
You seem to be using 2 different definitions of "evil."
On one hand, you say that evil is defined by a society, at the time, however they think evil is.
Then you seem to shift and say that God is not evil... as if using some sort of "universally evil" definition.
If evil is defined by the society, and God does something evil as defined by that society... then God is evil as determined by that society.
You are correct that this in no way implies that God is somehow universally evil... but the entire concept of "universally evil" does not exist when claiming that evil is as defined by the society of the time. It doesn't mean anything anymore.. the only thing that means anything, then, is how that society defines evil. And, if God is evil according to that society, then God is "evil."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by jar, posted 02-17-2015 12:20 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 156 by jar, posted 02-23-2015 10:17 AM Stile has replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024