God is evil if He has miracles and does not use them.

As I have said so many times here at EvC, what does that even mean?How does GOD commune with humanity? What does that mean?What are the characteristics of Holy Communion as opposed to just Communion and how does GOD experience your culture through that or anything else?How can I tell your position from just word salad?

It is more than logic, reason, and reality....that much I know.I believe that it is through Jesus Christ.It is tough to describe a territory...even with well drawn maps.To start with, can we agree that humanity-at-large would even want to commune with GOD? Some critics assert that the answer is "no".I can imagine that GOD...even through Jesus--has a unique go of it with you...since you always ask questions and never accept pat answers.

HUH?How Phat? How?

Through communion. Let me put it this way. Joe Wood believed that the Warlord(who had enough food for everybody rather than just those who believed in him) should have fed everybody.What is the difference between offering someone food and force feeding everyone so as not to exclude anyone?Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

What does that mean Phat? Are you saying eating some Matzo and a sip of Mogen David is communion?

And I'm calling you fat. I can call you anything I like without regard to reality.

Expensive ice cream is evil - like expensive healthcare.

I have two answers to this.The first one assumes the world is as it is now.
The answer to your question is "No." God is not justified because the world is still full of evil people doing evil things that He's not preventing. Rapes are still happenning. God could prevent them. If He doesn't, then He's evil (assuming He can stop them at no risk or loss of resources to Himself, of course).The second answer assumes that all your IF statements actually happened and it occurred in some world that isn't ours.
I would assume that this world would be extremely different from the one we actually lived in.
If such a thing did happen, and rapes didn't happen any more because all the weight of guilt of evil in existence is gone... then yes, God would be justified and I wouldn't have an issue. I'm not hostile, I'm just pointing out that if God could stop rapes, but doesn't... then God's evil.
And yes, that's exactly why God is evil. If God does not always lift his hand to prevent rapes when they are easily preventable (for Him) at no risk (to God) and no loss of resources (doesn't "use-up" any God-power...) then yeah... that's exactly what makes Him evil. Why wouldn't it?

Of course you can.And if you stated some conditions, like, say:IF Stile exists.
IF being "fat" includes weighing over 500 lbs.
IF Stile weighs over 500 lbs.THEN Stile is fat....it would be perfectly reasonable within reality to say such a thing.Just like this:IF God exists.
IF God is all powerful.
IF "evil" includes not helping others when you're quite capable of helping them at no risk or loss of resources to yourself.
IF God does not prevent rapes.THEN God is evil.The point is just following basic definitions. It's not really all that difficult.
You can disagree with the definitions, if you'd like.You can say God isn't all powerful. Then yeah, maybe He's just trying His best.
You can say that "evil" does not include helping others when you're quite capable of helping them at no risk or loss of resources to yourself... but that would be a very strange definition of "evil" according to our current society.Either of those and I no longer have an argument.Or you can simply refuse to address the actual topic and simply make side comments that don't seem to have any relevance whatsoever. That works for me too, when I'm bored

Perhaps by intervening, God deprives us of doing our best to prevent evil. Thus we...as His resource--are being prevented from fulfilling our destiny and growth by His intervention prematurely.Just a thought.

I'm disagreeing with the use of definitions that are tailored to your desired conclusion.IF being "fat" means weighing what Stile weighs THEN Stile is fat.IF God is defined as God is usually defined THEN God is evil - BUT God is usually defined as NOT evil. You're cherry-picking parts of the "usual" definition.It's circular and useless.

He definitely would be, yes. If God corrects something, it removes the ability of other people to correct it.
Just like if I prevented a rape, you would not also be able to prevent that same rape....do you think the person getting raped actually cares if I prevented it or if God prevented it?
...Should we disband all police forces since all they're doing is depriving others from being able to prevent evil?Why not just help innocent victims as much as possible in the first place? Yes, we would be.
But what about, you know, the actual victim of the rape? Where does this leave them in "fulfilling their destiny and growth"?That's the problem.
That's what we're balancing.On one hand we have "absolute freedom of choice". We don't, really, but let's call it that anyway.
Of course, in order to have this "absolute freedom of choice" we have to allow for many evil people to rape many innocent victims.On the other hand, we could have "just a smidgen less than absolute freedom of choice". Such that you and I (and most other people who don't go around raping innocent victims) wouldn't notice a difference in our ability to freely choose whatever we want anyway.
And we would no longer have to worry about innocent victims being raped.I really don't see an issue with choosing option B.
To me, it's the same as living with a police force that actually is capable of doing the job we ask them to do. Why wouldn't we want that? Isn't that why we want police in the first place?

Okay. Can you explain how you think I'm doing this? I agree that this is a tailored definition to reach a conclusion.

quote:

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IF God exists.
IF God is all powerful.
IF "evil" includes not helping others when you're quite capable of helping them at no risk or loss of resources to yourself.
IF God does not prevent rapes.

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THEN God is evil.

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...but I do not see what you are complaining about with the definition I provide above.What's wrong with saying "not helping others when you're quite capable of helping them at no risk or loss of resources to yourself" is evil?
As far as I can understand.. pretty much everyone would agree that this statement is acceptable for being part of the definition for "evil." Yes, that's the paradox I'm talking about.Are you saying that you agree with my step-by-step phrasing... but you're just adding on "BUT God is usually defined as NOT evil" and then saying I'm being circular because my step-by-step phrasing ends up with the opposite conclusion?That's not me being circular. That's you accepting the paradox and just calling me circular for not accepting it.I'm just basically saying that God can't be all-powerful and all-"NOT evil" at the same time. That doesn't make me circular, that just makes me questioning-a-paradox.If your solution is to accept the paradox and say "I don't know how it works out, but I trust in God anyway.."
That's fine, for you.
...but it doesn't make me circular. That's nonsense.

There are some problems with your analogy. First off all, the police are public servants. God is not at our beck and call, nor does He have to do anything to prove that He is not evil. God owes us nothing.The traditional argument is that God gave His sons life for all of evils power to consume us to be thwarted---vanquished---eliminated.While I will say that I agree with those who see this as unnecessarily dramatic--they ask how if Jesus is God dying is any big deal. What, however, if God had left us humans alone and let us play out our natural course of affairs--evolution---awareness--eventual transcendence as the human animal---we would have killed ourselves?In other words, what if God has already intervened to prevent the destruction of the human species---and here we are quibbling over why He wont prevent the pain of every victim. What if the pain of some is the only way that growth of empathy in the rest of us can be nurtured?Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

I agree.
That's why I'm not saying that God has to do whatever we want whenever we want or else God is evil.I'm saying this:

quote:

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IF God exists.
IF God is all powerful.
IF "evil" includes not helping others when you're quite capable of helping them at no risk or loss of resources to yourself.
IF God does not prevent rapes.

​

THEN God is evil.

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It's very specific. It doesn't include having God at our beck and call. It doesn't have anything to do with God proving anything. It is a simple qualification and observation. I've heard.
And yet... people still get raped.
I'm less than impressed for this to be a solution of the problem of evil.I'm very impressed with how much of a sacrifice it would have been at the time.
I've heard of many people, too, making many such sacrifices (some even greater) in the name of what is good.However, the fact remains that people still get raped. And, IF God is still all-powerful, and IF evil includes not-helping when you easily could... THEN God is evil today. Perhaps. Personally, if God never interfered at all (good or bad, Jesus dying or stopping rapes..) I would expect the world to be pretty much exactly as it is now. If this is simply "the best God can do"... that is, if God is not all-powerful and there are restrictions on His power... then I do not blame Him for anything. Or if, say, He didn't know about the rapes going on or can't get there fast enough or something like that. Unless, of course, His power is still great enough to prevent some rapes at no cost to Himself and He chooses not to. Then I'd still call Him evil.The same way that I'd call myself evil if I could easily prevent a rape at no risk to myself... but I chose not to.Huh, that makes me realize I don't even need the "all-powerful" stuff in my points... that might clear it up a bit. Here we go:

quote:

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IF God exists.
IF God can easily prevent a rape.
IF there is no safety risk to God in preventing a rape.
IF God understands what rape is and that a particular innocent victim would not want to be raped.
IF "evil" includes not helping others when you're quite capable of helping them at no risk or loss of resources to yourself.
IF God does not prevent rapes given all the above,

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THEN God is evil.

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Quite simple.You can put anything in there, doesn't have to be "God."
Could be "Stile" or "Phat" or "Any person" or "Any intelligent being at all."It's quite obvious that "Stile" or "Phat" or "Any intelligent being at all" may have quite a problem with "easily preventing a rape at no safety risk to themselves."I guess it all depends on your personal idea of what makes God.... a GOD.