Knowing God

With all due respect, so what? Paul finds God confounds him. Do you?In other words: given God, are you but a child in your comprehension of him and his ways.

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With all due respect, so what?

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Meaning, my spiritual journey is not going to be exactly like anyone elses at any one given time. We are all at different positions along the path.Paul may have be confounded by God at the time he wrote the statement, it doesn't mean he stayed that way. Have I been confounded by God at some point along the path, yes.But right now, no, I'm not disconcerted, confused or bewildered by God.
No I am not a child in my comprehension of him and his ways, when starting my journey, yes.The originator is starting his spiritual journey by asking about Jesus and is open, as a child, to answers. If he continues he will go through various emotions and degrees of confusion and comprehension, but if or when he comes to know Jesus or God his experience will not necessarily be exactly the same as your experience, my experience, or anyone elses or in the same timeframe.There aren't numbered instructions for truly knowing God that everyone can follow with the same exact results.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

I am not saying the one doesn't come to know God better. Nor that one persons relationship will be deeper than anothers. What I was pointing out was the nature of the relationship no matter how deep one goes. Always that of a parent/child with the characteristics I pointed out a few posts back. Never adult to adult as you get with humans when the child grows up.

This is what I find most distasteful about the concept of a "relationship" with God. It is based on fear and patronage as opposed to mutual respect. I have no desire to submit to anyone or anything as a "child".Paul of Tarsus:"When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things."Edited by RickJB, : No reason given.Edited by RickJB, : No reason given.

I'm afraid your parent/child analogy falls at the first hurdle :

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"Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil" (Genesis 3:22)

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Unlike a child, we can tell when our father does evil and we can call him on it. There's no "father knows best" in this case!

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"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

God respects me and I respect him. Like a father respects his child and a child respects his father. That I disobey him and he disciplines me doesn't mean respect goes out the window.I don't really understand how something created can demand as you do however (other than your insistance being the classic Fall position). God will respect your wishes if rejecting him is what you insist upon. But he will not suffer his creation rebelling forever. There are consequences for it - your choice being limited to desiring those consequences. It is as it is. Wishing it different is pointless.The thing is that every knee will bow before him anyway. Some will do so willingly, having recognised his claim over them. They delight in the mercy he showed them and the nature of the relationship that was subsequently revealed to them (which is anything other than "fear and patronage"). Others will be compelled to bow as in them finding bowing to him irresistable. They will accept (for they will see for themselves) that Jesus Christ is, in fact, Lord.

Why not? There comes time when all parents must relinquish control over their children... Eh?! God will "respect" your decision AND then punish you for it? How is that respect? He either respects my decision or he doesn't. So we're "free" to make our own decisions as long they are the ones that HE wants, is that it?This just makes your God sound like a lunatic, Iano! Of course, this is only according to you.Edited by RickJB, : No reason given.

Not if there is no time. He won't punish you for your decision. He will punish you for you sin. He respects your decision in so far as allowing that to be your choice - he won't force you to accept him. That is respecting your (God given) right as an individual to chose against him.But your sin is your sin. You can't shrug that off by saying "I want nothing to do with God". That is shirking your responsiblity. You have that responsibility whether you like it or not. That is not a choice for you to make.You are in a closed system Rick. Rejecting God is an option. Not rejecting him is another. Edited by iano, : No reason given.Edited by iano, : No reason given.

I'm afraid I don't believe a word of it. Sorry. Either way, life's far too short to spend in fear of sinning against some God I've never seen.You are welcome to your own beliefs Ian, but I ain't buying!Edited by RickJB, : No reason given.Edited by RickJB, : No reason given.

Eternal life starts around about the day you do start fearing. Hopefully he will bring you to that point (although it may come in the guise of something else). If it comes don't dilly dally - do the sensible thing. See you at the next statement that inflames your ire then..

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What I was pointing out was the nature of the relationship no matter how deep one goes. Always that of a parent/child with the characteristics I pointed out a few posts back. Never adult to adult as you get with humans when the child grows up.

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I disagree.Examples from your analogy in Message 47As an adult we realize that our parents can't do everything. The spiritually mature realize God won't do everything. They understand what God will and won't do for them. As an adult we realize that we now are responsible for our decisions, actions, and physical needs, but we can still get advice from our parents. The spiritually mature also realize they are responsible for their thoughts, actions, and decisions; but they can still get guidance from God. Just as an adult uses what he has learned as a child, the spiritually mature use what they have learned from God on their journey. If our parents did their job right we shouldn't need discipline as an adult. A simple warning usually suffices if they see us going down the wrong path. The spiritually mature person also shouldn't need discipline anymore. They perceive God's warnings and heed them. N/A As adults we no longer expect our parents to "make everything alright", but we do solicit advice on how to "fix" the problem. The spiritually mature don't expect God to "make everything alright", but solicit advice to "fix" the problem. I don't agree with this one even as a parent/child relationship. N/A As adults we then know what is good for us and solicit advice when unsure. The spiritually mature learn what is good for them and solicit advice from God when unsure. N/A But it can once they are adults and in both directions. As adults we aren't supposed to cling to our parents. That doesn't mean we desert them. The spiritually mature are not clingy, needy children.IMO, God wants us to grow up so we aren't so high maintenance. But beginning the journey is like being a child, we have to be open to learning, studying, changing, etc.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

Hehe. But of course, sir!

God can but won't. Like a parent can spoon feed but won't. That God won't doesn't mean we are anything but children. Growth and development are desired in the child. But not that it become an independant adult. Independance from God is what caused all the trouble in the first place. Children do the same thing. Like I said, it is not desired that we remain infants. As adults we have learned, by and large what our parents know. Indeed with time our parents can regress where they are dependant on us. Whereas with God our knowledge is always a tiny fraction of what he knows. There is no situation we can encounter where he does not know which way we should go. We can never be free of needing his advice. Some children heed the discipline and others don't. I don't see escaping from under parenthood simply because parental discipline is heeded by a child. What happens if the adult can't fix the problem? I think the effects of parenting where there is rejection, lack of affirmation, lack of love, criticism etc are well documented. Low self esteem and trouble follow. So do mature children. Adulthood is typified by independance and striking out in own direction apart from direct guidance of parents. Can you give me an example of where this independance from God and sense of setting own direction independant from God is manifest in the relationship? Who else are you going to turn to when you sin. Who offers forgiveness? Who can bath you? Who can wipe the tears from your eyes? Beginning the journey is being born again. That means infant. Infants start out on spiritual milk and are encouraged to move to spiritual meat. Children can eat meat. There is no Biblical sense that we relate with God as adult-to-adult.Edited by iano, : No reason given.

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That God won't doesn't mean we are anything but children.

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Even though my daughter has a child of her own she is still my child. Mentally and physically she is an adult.I exaplained that the spiritually mature person understands what God will and won't do for them. An adolescent doesn't always understand why a parent won't or can't do something. No human is truly independent.

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Whereas with God our knowledge is always a tiny fraction of what he knows. There is no situation we can encounter where he does not know which way we should go. We can never be free of needing his advice.

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I didn't say we could be free of needing God's advice. I didn't say that the spiritually mature know all that God knows. I said that the spiritually mature use what they have learned from God on their journey and they ask for guidance when necessary. He's a spotter as opposed to training wheels.

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Some children heed the discipline and others don't. I don't see escaping from under parenthood simply because parental discipline is heeded by a child.

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Rather obsessed with escaping and indepence aren't you. Yes some children heed discipline and others don't. As adults those who are used to discipline are easier to steer back on the path before they screw up. They don't need to wait for consequences to see the error of their ways. Adults who did not respond to discipline as a child are the ones who still break the law. It has nothing to do with escaping parenthood. The spiritually mature person doesn't need serious discipline. They will heed a simple warning from God so God doesn't need to administer disciplinary action.

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What happens if the adult can't fix the problem?

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I said the spiritually mature don't expect God to "make everything alright", but solicit advice to "fix" the problem. I guess I needed to say solict advice from God. I assumed that was understood.

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think the effects of parenting where there is rejection, lack of affirmation, lack of love, criticism etc are well documented. Low self esteem and trouble follow.

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Yes there are and there are cases where a child can have plenty of love, affirmation, all the right things and still have low self esteem and vice versa.A spiritually mature person is going to understand their own selfworth and not look to others for constant edification. I say that because, IMO, if a person always needs outside confirmation of their worth, they have the potential to be easily swayed by something that makes them feel good.

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So do mature children. Adulthood is typified by independance and striking out in own direction apart from direct guidance of parents. Can you give me an example of where this independance from God and sense of setting own direction independant from God is manifest in the relationship?

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Unfortunately your parent/child analogy can only go so far. Adult children leave their parents domain or financial support and begin to provide for our own physical needs. Eventually they find a mate and so forth. Some adult children follow the same path as their parents and live very close together, so it isn't necessarily about severing all ties with ones parents.The spritually mature person is more like the adult child who follows in his father's footsteps.

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Who else are you going to turn to when you sin. Who offers forgiveness? Who can bath you? Who can wipe the tears from your eyes?

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We're talking about knowing God and the relationship. Forgiveness works the same way no matter what maturity level one is at.

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There is no Biblical sense that we relate with God as adult-to-adult.

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It is more Parent/Adult Child relationship.The examples you gave are more like a young child that depends completely on his parents for everything, which is where the journey will begin; but it can grow into a relationship like a parent to adult child. There is a big difference between those two relationships.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

When you are no longer there anymore she will no doubt miss you but doesn't require you for her sustenance. She is, for all intents and purposes, independant of you. An adult.Not so with a child: mature and sensible though they may be. Take away parents and the childs development falters. This journey you speak of is one of spiritual development I take it. Take away Gods input and you falter. Who else is going to advise and guide your development if not him?That a person is more mature than another, that they heed advice as opposed to requiring discipline doesn't in any way eliminate their dependance on God in a manner similar to a child. They never will relate to God in anything like the way your adult daughter relates to you. As an equal - not in child-like need of your input for their journey. Have you any clear Biblical picture of this. To my mind there are many that support my own argument. There is no adult-adult sense of relationship in the picture of a shepherd and his sheep. None in the picture of God leading his people to freedom. None in the fact that the we are dependant on the Holy Spirit to lead us to all truth. No sense of adult independance in "without me you can do nothing". The sons relationship with his father was one of perfect obedience and a recognition of that child/parent relationship. The words Jesus spoke were his fathers not his own. His miracles were the power of the father delivered through him.Is there any picture you can think of at all which indicates anything but being led as a child the whole way down the path?