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Author Topic:   The Suicide of Thought... (Rob and sidelined only)
Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3200 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 16 of 22 (397035)
04-24-2007 1:27 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by sidelined
04-22-2007 12:36 PM


Hope this helps
I'm just going to be real with you here S.L... you take it however you must.

Sidelined:

It is obvious in reading through your posts that you have had a great deal of turmoil in your life and that the result of your struggles and searching was to take the road that many choose in Christianity and submit to your emotional weariness and don what I consider to be an even more unhealthy attitude by assuaging youdespair in the cloak of imagination and psychological parrying of the hurt you feel.

Actually, it is not like that at all...

I suffer more now, than the initial struggles that brought me to Christ (as bad as they were). And that was quite a shock to me at first, until I read more of what Jesus had to say. And His spirit confirmed those words for me on the inside. It was, and is, like reading what I was already thinking when I arrive at a new level of understanding and wisdom.

You see, I didn't really think there was much wrong with me at the time. I was a normal family man in many respects. The only thing I knew with certainty, was that I was a sinner. And I don't know what to tell you, other than I believed what Jesus said without really comprehending much more than that. I recognized His Word as 'truth'.

It was only after the 'new birth', that I have been faced with my real issues. The one's I hid from for so many years. I thought my eyes were opened before, and now I realize it is a continuing process. I can't handle too much at once, and just as He promises in the scriptures, He only gives me what I can handle. But as I see myself more clearly (in His light) I realize why no man can see the face of God and live. What terrifies me, is that many will hide from the reality of thier own self, and on the day of their departure they will be thrown full strength into reality. So I have some idea what hell will be like now. No more hiding. No more games. We'll be face to face with Him with nowhere to run.

That is painful. Whether it is accepted now and dealt with by His ways, or whether we are thrust into it as our attempts to control our own mind is taken from us.

For me, that is the cross bearing Christ promises. He gives us the strength to not only 'see' reality, but helps us endure the transition. It's not exactly the 'goodtime' theology (be it secular pop psychology or not) that so many are seeking today. It is 'real' and sometimes excruciating.

But many things in this life that are good, require sacrifice and pain. So we should not be suprised to think that anything that is genuine is all happy feelings. It wouldn't be 'real' life if it was. It is only a dream that does not exist other than in our temporary minds eye.

Sidelined:

You say you were utterly shocked to find that something occured and yet you admit to being broken and in despair so why do you find it strange that you should feel different after having unburdened yourself to a group that would support you when you accept their beliefs? Having just expressed the remorse and admitting that you felt lost and alone to a group or even to yourself about your feelings can be a powerful experience right?

I have only now (about 4 years into my conversion) begun to 'unburden myself'. I was (and still am to some degree) too 'bound up' with fear (even after my rebirth) to confess who I really am to others. So that is not the powerful experience I was talking about.

It is just as I said before... I cannot describe the 'experience' other than to say that many of the things I once considered 'hopeful cliches' like, 'I was blind but now I see' make sense now...

Sidelined:

I have heard this many times throughout my dealings with some Christians and I have been puzzled by what precisely was meant by this as it seems to me that they are anything but filled with peace.I have known many before and after their conversion and I have not noticed any difference in their actions from before.

The peace comes from knowing Him personally. That is part of the experience I had. I have no doubts who He is now...

As for the lack of change, I have often wished that the surrender was immediate. For some it is very fast (as God enables for His own plans for each). But what are we asking? That He control us like some dog on a leash? That God kill what is uniquely 'you' and 'me' so as to make us into someone else?

We do have to die, whether we accept Him or not. But His ways are higher than our ways. He teaches and trains us to walk on our own. He does not control us like puppets. He wants us to understand, not believe blindly. Our failures are what make 'us' aware of our weaknesses so that we can deal with them. And that is the part that is getting me right now...

God already knows my brokenness. He knows me far better than I know myself. But He wants me to see it. Not fun, but healing after we realize we're still alive. When I see what is wrong, then I can make sense out of why He said that 'this or that' is the 'right' way to live in whatever the issue may be. Until I deal with the consequences, His Word often makes no sense. But when faced with my failures, and unable to deny truth (because He indwells me) I realize that once again His Word stands fast.

Eventually, after going through this process enough times, one stops questioning Him, since He has proven His Word over and over again. That is when 'real' mature faith is developed.

I'm like you in many regards... I am a rationalist for one. And when I here very mature Christians speak of trusting God without being able to see how things will play out I am astonished! But they are not. God rewards those folks with many blessings. To you and me, some of those blessings may appear to be curses. But they are no longer thinking about this life the way I once did or you may still. They have seen things you and I can only dream of. They know Him more than many of us can possibly imagine. To us it is luducrous.

Even so, I have seen enough to know that that is where I want to be. But it is not up to me but God. He pushes me toward His plans for my life. And though I don't fully understand them, they are the only plans that will ever truely satisfy.

I have a purpose... And far from forcing me into it, He is training me to let go of what I want (in my human ignorance) and see how much bigger the picture is from His perspective. It is not much different 'in kind' than a caoch who sees potential in a kid who has no clue of his own skill. And He knows how to bring it out, even though the kid may think the caoch is killing him along the way.

Many of his friends may stand on the outside of the game and come to the 'wrong conclusion', that there is no point in him enduring such treachery. But in reality it is love at work, not sadism.

Sidelined:

I have also done the accept Christ into your life bit back when I thought my mother was dying and I was sincere in my need to accept such and the end result was that nothing occured so what do I make of this? That I was rejected and that God hates me or was I not sincere and broken enough?

I don't know S.L... That is something you'll have to answer. But I know for a fact that God does not hate anyone. He loves us more than we can comprehend. Enough to die for us. It is so far removed from our twisted perceptions of love, that the cross intitially makes no sense whatsoever to many. He gave us the tools. We have to study it, and think with the mind He gave us. We have to want to understand. And it is not only cerebral. We must also listen to our heart. The two combined in harmony is what 'real' thinking is.

Just as a good judge in court does not hate anyone, God does not either. But He will not be bribed. And He will not allow us to determine what His heaven (court) will be. We have some idea how 'Just' it would be, by looking at our own lives here on earth and in time.

Heaven is God's reality. If we want it, we must do it His way. And that is because he litterally is good. There is no allowance for less that heavenly. So we can have it His way (which means we have to trust Him until we understand more); or, we can have it our way... forever!

Trust me when I tell you, you wouldn't want to live under my idea of 'the perfect and eternal life'. Not even I want to live by my own perceptions.

And that is why the Gospel is good news. We can know what reality is if we trust Him. The training is difficult, and makes no sense to those who insist on playing God over their own lives (and worse, those of others).

It is about control.

Rob:
I confessed to God my inability to comprehend what was true and what wasn't. I confessed I would be rightly condemned if judged by an all seeing God. I confessed that I was utterly lost without Him.

SideLined: This is telling as well since the despair you felt is so obvious in these statements. Can I ask you if you were told to what you must say in order to be saved or was this by your own conviction ?

The reason I ask is that this is quite close to the words that the group I ran into gave to me to speak and I was wondering if it was different in your case.

I was not told what to say. I was however, led in prayer.

But the words were from my heart at that time. In other words... although the pastor was leading the congregation in the prayer, to me he could not have chosen more accurate words to mirro my heart. It was more than coincidence; it was supernatural.

Many things converged. My heart and mind were on the same page. And in some mysterious way, the pastors words seemed meant only for me. I was not even thinking of the others in the room at that moment. It was deeply personal.

That is the truth! And it is not something you can fake. It is not even something you can conjure up on your own. You cannot wish it to happen. Only God can lead us to that place.

So the words were not magic. There was no incantation or repetitious quality to them. God was not going to show up like some genie in a bottle ready to grant me my three wishes. It was real. That is the best way to describe it... it was real.

There are as many ways to say that prayer as there are people. And each Sunday the pastor leads us in a different prayer when it comes to asking Christ into our life. The words I told you I prayed were not quoted. I don't remember the exact words. I just remember what it was about. But I remember that Sunday. It was different from the others inwhich I prayed a simmilar prayer.

What matters is the heart. You need not even speak them. The question is, do you really mean it. Are you really laying it all down?

I'll add another twist to this testimony... I am only now beginning to realize what I agreed to. And several times the pressure I have experienced was so bad (nearly suicidal), that I wanted to forget the whole thing and go back to my old self. But I couldn't. Because I have met Him in that personal way (close encounter of the third kind if you will), it is impossible for me to pretend it didn't happen. Now that I know, I am trapped. And I thank God for that because I am just not strong enough.

Now that tells you something about me. And it told me something about me. And now I know why Jesus said He will not lose any. It is the seal of the Holy Spirit. I am His, even when I don't like it.

And that's a good thing because I always sucked at sports because I am a quitter. But unlike a human coach, this friend of mine never gives up on me.

And so even though I am miserable in may ways according to human eyes (including my own), I have a joy and peace on another scale that is vastly greater than this temporary life in time. And with that joy and hope, I have endured more troubles than I ever thought I would perceive, let alone face head on.

Edited by Rob, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by sidelined, posted 04-22-2007 12:36 PM sidelined has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by sidelined, posted 04-25-2007 8:52 AM Rob has responded

    
Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3200 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 17 of 22 (397084)
04-24-2007 10:05 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by sidelined
04-22-2007 12:36 PM


Re: New topic
Sidelined:
...what I consider to be an even more unhealthy attitude by assuaging youdespair in the cloak of imagination and psychological parrying of the hurt you feel.

I wanted to add something about this... I ask you to consider that your perception is out of court.

If you were to go back and look at some of my past conversations, you would notice that I used to be very offended by comments like the one you made.

When we are offended, it is always our pride that is in control. And at it's root is deep insecurity.

The only cloaking of despair that was going on, was the false image of myself that required an imaginative and and psychological costume so as to keep my bubble intact.

That bubble has been in the process of being broken by Christ. So though I may seem unhappy at times, we must not forget that happiness is often achieved by holding to false ideas of reality. And people will fight and kill to hold on to them.

One of my false ideas was that I could come into EVC and present the Gospel in a 'new way'. I was going to set them straight, since I had been on the other side of the coin. I believed in evolution et al and had made the transition.

But I found myself offending people at every turn. And their attacks on me were not only shocking but dissapointing. Even crushing.

I'd rather be crushed, than offended. It means that Love is slowly taking root.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by sidelined, posted 04-22-2007 12:36 PM sidelined has not yet responded

    
sidelined 
Inactive Suspended Member


Message 18 of 22 (397256)
04-25-2007 8:52 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by Rob
04-24-2007 1:27 AM


Re: Hope this helps
Rob

I suffer more now, than the initial struggles that brought me to Christ (as bad as they were). And that was quite a shock to me at first, until I read more of what Jesus had to say. And His spirit confirmed those words for me on the inside. It was, and is, like reading what I was already thinking when I arrive at a new level of understanding and wisdom.

You see, I didn't really think there was much wrong with me at the time. I was a normal family man in many respects. The only thing I knew with certainty, was that I was a sinner. And I don't know what to tell you, other than I believed what Jesus said without really comprehending much more than that. I recognized His Word as 'truth'.

Well this brings a further muddying of the fields out in the open since you are already convinced of the truth of Jesus words before you even accept him into your life how do you determine that you have not merely talked yourself into the psychological status you now operate in? More to the point how do you convince others that such is not the case?
First though let us begin by examining the things that you considered the struggles that led you to Christ.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Rob, posted 04-24-2007 1:27 AM Rob has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by Rob, posted 04-25-2007 10:22 AM sidelined has responded

  
Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3200 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 19 of 22 (397275)
04-25-2007 10:22 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by sidelined
04-25-2007 8:52 AM


Re: Hope this helps
Sidelined:
Well this brings a further muddying of the fields out in the open since you are already convinced of the truth of Jesus words before you even accept him into your life how do you determine that you have not merely talked yourself into the psychological status you now operate in?

Hold on there...

I wasn't convinced that Jesus words are true. His words are true!

Do you see the difference?

Let me place the burden on you. Show me something He said that isn't true.

Sidelined:

More to the point how do you convince others that such is not the case?

Let's stop beating around the bush. Psychological status? You mean that I am mad?

Compared to whom? Those who know the truth?

How can I convince anyone of something they refuse to accept? A child cannot be taught if he makes up his mind not to submit to the teacher.

I've stood on the other side of the fence Sidelined. I was 33 years old when I came to faith. I let go of my 'psychological status' in our 'relative perceptions of reality' that you appear to refer to as sanity.

I have given up faith in America, human wisdom, materialism, political freedom, etc (hedonism IOW). They are all going to parish. They are momentary empires and strategies. They are the goal posts that move.

What can be believed in? Why am I here? What is reality? Who am I? Who is God? None of these questions are answered by my old 'psychological status'.

Can you bring me back? Are you my savior? Can you help me to see the light? Can you answer those questions for me?

Sidelined:

First though let us begin by examining the things that you considered the struggles that led you to Christ.

Why do you want to know?

Edited by Rob, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by sidelined, posted 04-25-2007 8:52 AM sidelined has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by sidelined, posted 04-30-2007 11:24 PM Rob has responded

    
sidelined 
Inactive Suspended Member


Message 20 of 22 (398479)
04-30-2007 11:24 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Rob
04-25-2007 10:22 AM


Re: Hope this helps
Rob

I wasn't convinced that Jesus words are true. His words are true!

Do you see the difference?

Nope. It would be good of you to clarify.

Let me place the burden on you. Show me something He said that isn't true.

Just as soon as you can find me something written by him to show that he said it,rather than by third party reference to events decades after by people not even witness to the events themselves.

Let's stop beating around the bush. Psychological status? You mean that I am mad?

Compared to whom? Those who know the truth?

Easy now big guy, By psychological status I mean your state of mind not your level of sanity.

How can I convince anyone of something they refuse to accept? A child cannot be taught if he makes up his mind not to submit to the teacher

You convince someone with the strength of the argument you present to justify your position on a subject. Of course if a person has closed their minds we cannot begin to penetrate it without their consent.However, to state that a person is closed minded simply because they disagree with your argument is an incorrect stance to assume. It may well be that they have heard better arguments concerning the subject you wish to discuss and thus consider your argument insufficient to sway their opinion.

I've stood on the other side of the fence Sidelined. I was 33 years old when I came to faith. I let go of my 'psychological status' in our 'relative perceptions of reality' that you appear to refer to as sanity.

Since I have explained the meaning of psychological status then we need pursue this misunderstanding any further.

I have given up faith in America, human wisdom, materialism, political freedom, etc (hedonism IOW). They are all going to parish. They are momentary empires and strategies. They are the goal posts that move.

Heaven and earth shall pass away too the bible says yet this is not troubling to me since I am not holding on to the notion of wishing more from life.

What can be believed in? Why am I here? What is reality? Who am I? Who is God? None of these questions are answered by my old 'psychological status'.

Believe what you will.
I do not know why you are here. Perhaps it is a wrong question to ask.
Reality is a slippery matter but there are many clues that we have established throughout history by rule and line.
Who God is has never been established with any level of certainty that I am aware of.
Perhaps your state of mind is something that you decided to cling to as a means of taking a stance you agreed with.

Can you bring me back? Are you my savior? Can you help me to see the light? Can you answer those questions for me?

No. I do not think the questions are actually valid since it is my understanding that the things you ask have no basis in reality.

sidelined writes:

First though let us begin by examining the things that you considered the struggles that led you to Christ.

Rob writes:

Why do you want to know?

It gives us insight into the workings of your mind in relation to those struggles and how the events you went through led you to Christ.
Perhaps you have an epiphany of understanding that we are not aware of. Perhaps you have made an error of reasoning. Without the understanding of these things we cannot decide for ourselves the validity of the things you profess.


" Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention to arrive safely in a pretty and well-preserved body but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming: Wow!!What a ride!"
-----------------------------------------
What delightful hosts they are-Love and Laughter!
Lingeringly I turn away at this late hour,yet glad
They have not withheld from me their high hospitality.
So at the door I pause to press their hands once more
And say,"So fine a time!Thank you both...and goodbye.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Rob, posted 04-25-2007 10:22 AM Rob has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by Rob, posted 05-01-2007 1:07 AM sidelined has not yet responded

  
Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3200 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 21 of 22 (398492)
05-01-2007 1:07 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by sidelined
04-30-2007 11:24 PM


Re: Hope this helps
Sidelined:
You convince someone with the strength of the argument you present to justify your position on a subject.

Your statement is false. You have phrased it as an absolute. It assumes an honest intent in the audience, which is never always true.

Jesus said to Pilot, '... everyone on the side of truth listens to me.'

That is an astounding statement, and He intended it to be an absolute as were many of his comments. And without question, my favorite Christian philosopher, summed up Jesus' words astutely:

"In any interplay between a person and information, the first test, is not the veracity of the information, but the honesty of the person."
(Ravi Zacharius)

Perhaps you deny that. But I would hope you do not do so absolutely.

That is all I have to say in response to your last post. It is not up to me to convince you of anything. So I am not failing my mission or deterred in any way at this point. You are free to believe what you want. But I do not have to let your descision affect my happiness. I am being told to wipe the dust off my feet and move on. I am free.

If this is in any way a mystery to you, or seen as some lame attempt to win an unwinnable argument, then may I suggest C.S. Lewis' book 'The Great Divorce'. In particular the story of the 'Tragedian' and the 'Dwarf' in chapter 12. It encapsulates the physchological terrorism employed by so many to bring down an otherwise faithful minister of the true Gospel of Christ. Personally, I have had enough of it from you even though I wish you well, and God's speed.

Edited by Rob, : No reason given.

Edited by Rob, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by sidelined, posted 04-30-2007 11:24 PM sidelined has not yet responded

    
waqasf 
Inactive Suspended Member


Message 22 of 22 (462926)
04-10-2008 12:34 PM


Spam deleted.

Edited by AdminModulous, : No reason given.


  
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