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Author Topic:   Arbitrary Salvation?
Madfish
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 37 (272350)
12-24-2005 3:26 AM


Hello there. This is my first topic and first post, so I ask that you please bear with me. I've been a lurker for over a year and I think I have a handle on how things work, but we're all prone to error from time to time.
To give a little background to this topic, I was raised a Christian and identified as one for most of my life. Only in the past few years have I questioned, and subsequently lost, my faith. The reasons why are irrelevant to this thread. Despite the fact that I am now an atheist, i'm still very interested in religion, especially Christianity as it is the one I am most familiar with.
The focus of this thread is on a certain aspect of Christian dogma that seems to be mainstream. I know that there are many different interpretations of the bible represented here, so some may not want to respond if they simply wish to argue over the validity of this. The tenet i'm speaking of is the basic means of salvation. From my understanding, the only way to salvation is by believing in Jesus Christ. He lived, died for our sins, rose from the dead, and so on. I found this a very arbitrary criteria for salvation when I was a believer, and I still do now. It's always said that good works won't get you into heaven. It seems as if that would be the more just method. This means of salvation is based soley on your belief in Jesus and nothing else. My question is, do you find the belief in Jesus to be an arbitrary criteria for salvation?
The belief in something says nothing about the quality of someone. If this view is right, good people are destined for hell, simply because they don't believe in Jesus. I can't help but think it unjust and arbitrary. Your thoughts are appreciated.
Note: This was written rather hastily, and i'm sure there is plenty that can be cleaned up. I just want to get some general feedback before I tweak it, and perhaps delve further.

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by AdminRandman, posted 12-24-2005 3:39 AM Madfish has replied
 Message 7 by ReverendDG, posted 12-24-2005 5:16 AM Madfish has replied
 Message 10 by nwr, posted 12-26-2005 12:47 AM Madfish has not replied
 Message 11 by Faith, posted 12-26-2005 1:10 AM Madfish has replied
 Message 27 by Ben!, posted 12-27-2005 10:21 PM Madfish has replied

  
AdminRandman
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 37 (272352)
12-24-2005 3:39 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Madfish
12-24-2005 3:26 AM


on 2nd thought, Bible study
Moved to Bible study.
This message has been edited by AdminRandman, 12-24-2005 03:43 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Madfish, posted 12-24-2005 3:26 AM Madfish has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Madfish, posted 12-24-2005 3:42 AM AdminRandman has not replied

  
Madfish
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 37 (272355)
12-24-2005 3:42 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by AdminRandman
12-24-2005 3:39 AM


Re: how about comparitive religions forum?
That's fine with me. Whatever you think is best.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by AdminRandman, posted 12-24-2005 3:39 AM AdminRandman has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by randman, posted 12-24-2005 3:46 AM Madfish has replied

  
AdminRandman
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 37 (272357)
12-24-2005 3:43 AM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4889 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 5 of 37 (272359)
12-24-2005 3:46 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Madfish
12-24-2005 3:42 AM


Re: how about comparitive religions forum?
The Bible actually says that anyone that works righteousness and "fears God" is accepted by him. Jesus is not per se the only way to heaven except He is in the sense that Jesus is the mediator between God and man, and so when someone goes to heaven that doesn't know of Jesus, they meet Him there.
The Bible does say that people will be damned though for rejecting Jesus in rejecting the gospel. One has to assume that means they hear the real gospel and still reject it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Madfish, posted 12-24-2005 3:42 AM Madfish has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by Madfish, posted 12-24-2005 4:19 AM randman has replied
 Message 8 by purpledawn, posted 12-24-2005 6:35 AM randman has replied

  
Madfish
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 37 (272365)
12-24-2005 4:19 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by randman
12-24-2005 3:46 AM


Re: how about comparitive religions forum?
I don't equate "not believing in Jesus" with "rejecting him." I would have to believe in him first before I could reject him and his message.
It isn't as if i'm rejecting God. If he's real, I certainly want to know him. This isn't a case of God offering a handshake and being spat on. It's more a case of God throwing a book full of stories that stretch the limits of reason into the street, and assuming that anyone who doesn't pick it up and believe it wants nothing to do with him.
--
You didn't really answer my question though. Do you think it's an arbitrary criteria?
This message has been edited by Madfish, 12-24-2005 04:20 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by randman, posted 12-24-2005 3:46 AM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by randman, posted 12-26-2005 1:27 AM Madfish has replied

  
ReverendDG
Member (Idle past 4100 days)
Posts: 1119
From: Topeka,kansas
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 7 of 37 (272371)
12-24-2005 5:16 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Madfish
12-24-2005 3:26 AM


Well historically, salvation had always been both a works and faith thing, it wasn't until martin luther preposed his doctrines, which led to the split we all know and love, that it became about faith vs works really sure people argued it in the church before then.
but it wasn't until luther, then calvin came along that it caused the split
personally i think only salvation without works is pointless in the life and works without a meaning are just as pointless, both are needed, Its when you define eather as more importiant that you lose sight of the reasons you do things

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Madfish, posted 12-24-2005 3:26 AM Madfish has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Madfish, posted 12-25-2005 10:27 PM ReverendDG has not replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3447 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 8 of 37 (272378)
12-24-2005 6:35 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by randman
12-24-2005 3:46 AM


Rejction of Jesus/Gospel
quote:
The Bible does say that people will be damned though for rejecting Jesus in rejecting the gospel. One has to assume that means they hear the real gospel and still reject it.
Could you share the verses that present this so we are all on the same page?
I want to see whose gospel we are required to believe. Jesus or Paul's.

There are two ways of spreading light: to be the candle or the mirror that reflects it. -Edith Wharton

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by randman, posted 12-24-2005 3:46 AM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by randman, posted 12-26-2005 1:24 AM purpledawn has replied

  
Madfish
Inactive Member


Message 9 of 37 (272707)
12-25-2005 10:27 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by ReverendDG
12-24-2005 5:16 AM


quote:
personally i think only salvation without works is pointless
So you agree that a salvation without works is arbitrary, yes?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by ReverendDG, posted 12-24-2005 5:16 AM ReverendDG has not replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6407
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 10 of 37 (272746)
12-26-2005 12:47 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Madfish
12-24-2005 3:26 AM


From my understanding, the only way to salvation is by believing in Jesus Christ. He lived, died for our sins, rose from the dead, and so on. I found this a very arbitrary criteria for salvation when I was a believer, and I still do now.
This seems to be a repeating theme. It was touched on in I'm trying: a stairway to heaven? and in Right Behavior Inherits Eternal Life.
My own take is that faith requires more than a mere mental act of belief. It also requires a transformation of one's life. But I guess this will be argued forever, and will continue to be a dispute between different Christian denominations.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Madfish, posted 12-24-2005 3:26 AM Madfish has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1434 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 11 of 37 (272751)
12-26-2005 1:10 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Madfish
12-24-2005 3:26 AM


Is that real belief you are talking about?
The gospel isn't about some kind of mere belief, as in mere assent to the doctrines of Christianity -- whether it's belief in the deity of Christ, or His death on the cross or any of it -- it's about a kind of belief that is a complete casting of yourself on Jesus, trusting Him completely and living for Him completely.
I like how truthlover illustrated it at one point a couple weeks ago, when he said
An illustration I like to use is a person who claims to have faith in say, Hulk Hogan. If Hulk Hogan then got on TV and said that to live a happy, full, and prosperous life, one must stand for one hour each night at midnight in the snow throughout winter, then the only true believer in Hulk Hogan is the one who does that. Everyone else really doesn't believe him.
http://EvC Forum: Christianity Is Broken, but Can Be Fixed -->EvC Forum: Christianity Is Broken, but Can Be Fixed
In other words true belief, or faith in Jesus, inevitably leads one to good works, that is, obedience. That's what the letter of James says: faith without works is dead. The works don't save, but they express or evidence salvation.
So I think you have in mind an empty belief, an intellectual sort of belief, not true belief. It starts with knowing you're a sinner who deserves death and who therefore NEEDS a Savior. Everything begins at that point. True good works begin at that point.
{ABE: THe point is that we are incapable of good works to the degree that would save us, we fall so short of what God is and what God requires that if we were dependent upon our own works for salvation even the very very best most saintly person on earth would go to hell. This is simply in the nature of things, we are truly sinners. That has to be recognized before teh gospel makes sense, before believing in Christ makes sense. As long as anyone thinks there's any possibility of being saved by being good they are in deep dangerous delusion. God is that high above us, God is that perfect, that holy, that Good. As Jesus said, there is no one good but God. Scripture says in other places that there are none of us good, "no, not one." That has to be taken to heart before our need for a perfect Savior is felt and the gift of salvation is appreciated. Scripture says that even our BEST works are "filthy rags" -- this is why we need Him to give us clean robes, His own righteousness. This is given through faith in Him, the kind of faith that produces the complete trust and dependence upon Him and obedience to Him I'm talking about above.}
This message has been edited by Faith, 12-26-2005 01:43 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Madfish, posted 12-24-2005 3:26 AM Madfish has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by Madfish, posted 12-26-2005 9:54 PM Faith has replied

  
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4889 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 12 of 37 (272754)
12-26-2005 1:24 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by purpledawn
12-24-2005 6:35 AM


Re: Rejction of Jesus/Gospel
How about Peter in Acts 10?
34Then Peter opened his mouth and said, "In truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons,
35but in every nation he that feareth Him and worketh righteousness is accepted by Him.
Acts 10 KJ21 - There was a certain man in Caesarea - Bible Gateway
This message has been edited by randman, 12-26-2005 01:28 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by purpledawn, posted 12-24-2005 6:35 AM purpledawn has replied

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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4889 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 13 of 37 (272755)
12-26-2005 1:27 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Madfish
12-24-2005 4:19 AM


Re: how about comparitive religions forum?
God confirms His word to people. Only He knows what people really know and reject, and sometimes people claim not to know, but do.
I'd be careful and realize it's easy to be seduced by systems of thoughts that are incomplete. Take your stance to "old stories". I would talk to God and ask Him to show you if the stories are true before listening to people that don't want to beleieve them anyway.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Madfish, posted 12-24-2005 4:19 AM Madfish has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by Madfish, posted 12-26-2005 3:20 AM randman has replied

  
Madfish
Inactive Member


Message 14 of 37 (272764)
12-26-2005 3:20 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by randman
12-26-2005 1:27 AM


Re: how about comparitive religions forum?
I tried talking to God for years and never receieved an answer.
You still haven't answered my question. Is the criteria arbitrary?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by randman, posted 12-26-2005 1:27 AM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by randman, posted 12-26-2005 3:25 AM Madfish has replied

  
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4889 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 15 of 37 (272765)
12-26-2005 3:25 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by Madfish
12-26-2005 3:20 AM


Re: how about comparitive religions forum?
madfish, if you talk to God the same way you talk to me in asking me something, no wonder he doesn't answer, or maybe he does and you aren't seeing it for some reason.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Madfish, posted 12-26-2005 3:20 AM Madfish has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by Madfish, posted 12-26-2005 9:58 PM randman has not replied

  
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