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Author | Topic: God of the Bible as Flawed Human | |||||||||||||||||||||||
iano Member (Idle past 1971 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: |
both proverbs say "according to his folly." did you miss that? Ever heard of the proverb "a stitch in time" Apparently not. ("God calling Iano, God calling Iano. Come in Iano. I have a proverb for you too. You know it well enough by now, you fool. God calling Iano...")
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arachnophilia Member (Idle past 1374 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
your posts have broken down into nothing besides utter nonsense. do you intend to make a point?
i'll repeat.
quote: you cannot say that this is the difference -- that we are to answer fools, but not according to their follies. BOTH proverbs say "according to his folly." one says "answer according to his folly" and the other says "don't answer according to his folly." this is the "reading comprehension" bit we were talking about. the words on the page are important, iano. you can't just pretend that some of them aren't there, or that there are more there that everybody else sees.
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iano Member (Idle past 1971 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: |
Just a closing comment - my last quip wasn't the way to end it given the effort we both put in.
I've made my closing comments already but had to fill in yours from what I could gather was your position If you fancy it, write your own Heads closing position (say around the same length as mine with links to other stuff if you like). Cut and paste the Tail argument from my post (including the link to post 96) and post the lot as a final statement for posterity to any others who might want an opinion on what the proverbs are said to be saying/doing/achieving Ian Edited by iano, : Edit out rats ass (obliquely blasphemous)
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arachnophilia Member (Idle past 1374 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
If you fancy it, write your own Heads closing position again, you missed the point. actually, ironically, misunderstanding the proverbial saying in the process. i do not make heads or tails. Edited by arachnophilia, : No reason given.
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iano Member (Idle past 1971 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: |
If you like, write your closing position on the debate: your take on what should be done in approaching the two proverbs and and call it what you want.
head and tails simply represents opposing views: yours and mine.
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arachnophilia Member (Idle past 1374 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
If you like, write your closing position on the debate: your take on what should be done in approaching the two proverbs and and call it what you want. see Message 93.
head and tails simply represents opposing views: yours and mine. yes, but i was using it to describe the two opposing viewpoints of the proverbs in question. i asked you to make heads or tails of them. you made "tails" by way of arguing that "heads" wasn't real. Edited by arachnophilia, : can we move on now?
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
iano writes: It is that we should (Pr 26:5) but not in the fashion prohibited by Pr 26:4 It's the Book of Proverbs , not the Book of Prohibitions. It's about advice, not commandments. Different situations require different advice, so there's no problem with having two conflicting proverbs. Why all the wasted effort trying to reconcile them? Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation. Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
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arachnophilia Member (Idle past 1374 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
It's about advice, not commandments. Different situations require different advice, so there's no problem with having two conflicting proverbs. Why all the wasted effort trying to reconcile them? because i stupidly asked him to, because i thought it would demonstrate this obvious fault in his reasoning. but evidently, not to iano -- who cannot see past his preconceptions, even in light of evidence that contradicts them. the bible is the word of god, and god is consistent, so two verses that say exactly opposite things must in fact actually agree. nevermind that they don't.
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arachnophilia Member (Idle past 1374 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
back in Message 8, before i hopelessly sidetracked this thread trying to teach iano to read, i mentioned the story of moses convincing god to not destroy the israelites for worshipping the golden calf. god is suckered into sparing the israelites from his "justified" wrath and jealousy, out of ego. moses says,
quote: what will the egyptians think? moses tries another tactic as well.
quote: guilt. should god do it, he would be guilty of breaking his promise. you will find that this is a common theme. in genesis 18, there is a classic account of a prophet pleading with god -- and manipulating god out of guilt.
quote: abraham then bargains god down on the number of righteous to be found in the city for god to spare it. here's another less famous example, but maybe more clear. in amos 7, god is going to send a plaque of locusts to israel. amos argues:
quote: and it works:
quote: god starts fires, and amos again argues
quote: and it works:
quote: but, god eventually wins out:
quote: amos uses guilt to convince god that he should pity israel, reminding him of his promise -- one which he was not required to keep. israel had sinned, and god's "righteous jealousy" fully allowed (and even commanded) their punishment. and important thing to notice: god wavers. he goes back on his decision twice, and goes against his word. he is manipulated by guilt of an unfulfilled prophecy and a broken promise -- and the slaughter of innocents. something he had no problem with in egypt, and has every right to do. why can god be manipulated by mankind's persuasion? why can a prophet guilt god into doing something? why does god feel guilt for wanting to do something entirely justified? god, in these examples, is portrayed as a very human character, subject to changing his mind and emotions like guilt, and jealousy, and pity. |
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iano Member (Idle past 1971 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: |
Ringo writes: It's the Book of Proverbs , not the Book of Prohibitions. You mean a proverbs advice won't include a prohibition - like this Chinese proverb does?
quote: Edited by iano, : No reason given. Edited by iano, : No reason given.
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Arach, I wonder if one of us (er, meaning you, probably) could do this with some other non-Bible text, perhaps with Shakespeare, as a demonstration? Maybe some of Hamlet's speeches would do? Edited by schrafinator, : No reason given.
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iano Member (Idle past 1971 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: |
Arach, I wonder if one of us (er, meaning you, probably) could do this with some other non-Bible text, perhaps with Shakespeare, as a demonstration? There is no need to. The assumption that the Bible is the word of God is not required in my own analysis of these proverbs. That I attribute the wisdom to him arises out of a not-central-to-analysis assumption The assumptions required to arrive at what I arrived at are: - that we are dealing with two proverbs- that a piece of wisdom or advice was contained within each - that each proverb stands on its own. Although if combined they may lead to a greater wisdom than the sum of their parts. - that all the words in the proverb were relevant to the message contained. I can't recall Arach providing a clear, stand alone statement of what he felt either of the proverbs were saying. I do recall (as late as message 93) Arach referring to his reading of Pr 26:5
(this) one says it is better (to answer a fool....) There is nothing in the text indicate 'better'. When challenged on this. Silence .. . . . While I'm at it. Any response to msg 96? http://EvC Forum: God of the Bible as Flawed Human -->EvC Forum: God of the Bible as Flawed Human. It attempts to deal with your opinion that the proverbs contradicted each other Edited by iano, : No reason given. Edited by iano, : No reason given.
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
iano writes: You mean a proverbs advice won't include a prohibition - like this Chinese proverb does? "Do not fear going forward slowly; fear only to stand still." Of course that Chinese proverb doesn't contain a prohibition. Fear is certainly not something that can be prohibited. Do you really not understand the difference between advice and prohibition?
The two proverbs (in Proverbs) can conflict without diminishing the value of the Bible. The fact that they are side by side suggests that the authors were trying to make that point (or that they had a sense of humour ). Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation. Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
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iano Member (Idle past 1971 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: |
It is a bad idea to drink too much alcohol. I agree. Prohibit is not the right word. "Advised against...lest" is correct in the spirit of a proverb. Thanks for pointing out the minor error
The two proverbs (in Proverbs) can conflict without diminishing the value of the Bible. Of course they can only conflict if they do conflict. If they don't then they cannot
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arachnophilia Member (Idle past 1374 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
removed
Edited by arachnophilia, : post withdrawn, ringo did a better job anyways
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