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Author | Topic: The first 3 chapters of Genesis | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
iano Member (Idle past 1969 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: |
By way of addendum to post 237
Jar writes: If they do not know right from wrong they are not capable of obedience.
Robin writes: Not true. They knew one commandment and they knew they weren't supposed to break it. One can know there are unpleasant consequences without knowing something is right or wrong. Evidence elsewhere might inform a person that the choice to try something out, say walking into a lampost - will bring unpleasant consequences - all without any sense that it is right or wrong to do so. From our perspective we see God as having given a Commandment but they didn't necessarily have to see it so: a commandment if seen as such would require a sense of being able to disobey it. Disobedience requires a sense of knowing right from wrong. Pre-fall the situation is better described as the commandment being (in their eyes) a direction given from he who had dominion over them and which it was natural for them to follow. Like it is natural for a horse (who is under dominion) to respond to the leading of a bit. Had a knowledge of right and wrong NOT been something that arose out of NOT following the directive then they would NOT have had a sense of being punished (no more than an animal has that sense). They would have taken his action as a natural consequence of not following the directive given them. But because they now (post-fall) knew right from wrong they now knew that it wasn't just consequence they were receiving but punishment. The sense of being punished only arises when one knows right from wrong. This seems apparent from Eves response to the serpents temptation. She talks not of right and wrong but of consequence. The serpent talks of consequence too. Edited by iano, : No reason given. Edited by iano, : No reason given.
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robinrohan Inactive Member |
Are you as thick as a brick? Yes.
I have this unusual (for me) impulse to start typing in capital letters to you. No need. I got it, finally. Jar is also saying that their being punished makes no sense in that it makes God out to be a jerk, for Adam and Eve could not know that they should not disobey God. And since God is not a jerk, obviously there is another, more allegorical, meaning involved. All we have to do is look at little harder and we will find it. And Jar has no doubt found it. And no doubt it fits in perfectly with his modernized version of Christianity.
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kuresu Member (Idle past 2542 days) Posts: 2544 From: boulder, colorado Joined: |
I got it, finally. Jar is also saying that their being punished makes no sense in that it makes God out to be a jerk, for Adam and Eve could not know that they should not disobey God Wrong. You still don't get it. You really are as thick as a brick. Jar is saying that Adam and Eve were punished. The punishment--not being able to eat of the Tree of Life. Jar says they were punished. Not that the punishment doesn't make sense, but that your interpretation of the punishment doesn't make sense. as percy said, sheesh. Want to help give back to the world community? Did you know that your computer can help? Join the newest TeamEvC Climate Modelling to help improve climate predictions for a better tomorrow.
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jar Member (Idle past 423 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
The punishment--not being able to eat of the Tree of Life. I don't say that is the punishment. Guess I am having troubles explaining.
Cannon to right of them, Cannon to left of them, Cannon in front of them Volley'd & thunder'd; Storm'd at with shot and shell, Boldly they rode and well, Into the jaws of Death, Into the mouth of Hell Rode the six hundred. Know just how they felt. The punishments are laid out in Genesis 3:
16Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee. 17And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; 18Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; 19In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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iano Member (Idle past 1969 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: |
jar writes: Adam, with the input of Eve, disobeys and eats from the Tree of Knowledge. Only then, once Adam and Eve gain the capability to tell right from wrong do they realize that they have done wrong, are naked and so remorseful. God punishes them for the disobedience and the specific punishments are detailed. God punishes Adam, Eve and the environment. God also punishes the serpent, not for the act itself, but for instigating their disobedience. By way of clarification then...
Jar writes: Until they had the ability to know right from wrong they simply had no way of judging. They were innocent. It would be like telling a one year old that if she puts the rubber ducky in her mouth she will surely die. Jar says that they had no way of knowing right from wrong. It was in this state they chose. And because they chose they then (after the fact) became aware they had done wrong and then God punished them for doing a wrong they had no way of knowing they were doing. This makes, as Robin says, God out to be a jerk Thick as a brick or confused with good reason? {AbE}
Jar writes: If they do not know right from wrong they are not capable of obedience. Compare with the top quote. They disobey even though they are not capable of disobeying Edited by iano, : No reason given.
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kuresu Member (Idle past 2542 days) Posts: 2544 From: boulder, colorado Joined: |
seeing as how I got the punishment wrong, no big deal. my point is, Robin's still not got--Jar does think A and E were punished. I honestly don't care if it makes God out to be a jerk (I was just trying to explain what Jar is saying--got it wrong, but for the critical part).
God did punish A and E--no one doubts this, including Jar. (one last time for robin) Want to help give back to the world community? Did you know that your computer can help? Join the newest TeamEvC Climate Modelling to help improve climate predictions for a better tomorrow.
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iano Member (Idle past 1969 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: |
God did punish A and E--no one doubts this, including Jar. (one last time for robin) And my point is that when a poster puts up a series of bewildering contradictions ones mind can get befuddled about what is being said. Were Adam and Eve - before they knew right and wrong capable of obeying/disobeying. Jar says yes this time and no another Its a bit more complicated than thick as a brick.
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jar Member (Idle past 423 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Were Adam and Eve - before they knew right and wrong capable of obeying/disobeying. Jar says yes this time and no another No, jar never says that they were capable of obeying until after they had eaten from the Tree of Knowledge. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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robinrohan Inactive Member |
seeing as how I got the punishment wrong, no big deal The reason for this misunderstanding, kuresi, is that Jar likes to make coy, cryptic remarks. He likes to insinuate an idea without committing himself to it. I suppose he thinks this is how one is supposed to argue.
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kuresu Member (Idle past 2542 days) Posts: 2544 From: boulder, colorado Joined: |
but you have to admit--jar does think they were punished (and he ain't bein' coy or cryptic on that point)
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iano Member (Idle past 1969 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: |
jar writes: Adam, with the input of Eve, disobeys and eats from the Tree of Knowledge. No, jar never says that they were capable of obeying until after they had eaten from the Tree of Knowledge. His eating IS the disobedience. After happens...well...afterwards. You can't have after the act during the act.
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robinrohan Inactive Member |
(and he ain't bein' coy or cryptic on that point) For a while he was, particularly on the other thread that I took some quotes from.
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jar Member (Idle past 423 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
His eating IS the disobedience. After happens...well...afterwards. You can't have after the act during the act. Yes. It is disobedience. Please read what I write.
jar writes: No, jar never says that they were capable of obeying until after they had eaten from the Tree of Knowledge. They were incapable of obeying until after they had eaten from the Tree of Knowledge. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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kuresu Member (Idle past 2542 days) Posts: 2544 From: boulder, colorado Joined: |
past doesn't matter
agree or disagree:Jar thinks that A and E were punished Want to help give back to the world community? Did you know that your computer can help? Join the newest TeamEvC Climate Modelling to help improve climate predictions for a better tomorrow.
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iano Member (Idle past 1969 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: |
I suppose he thinks this is how one is supposed to argue. It is a valid way to argue if it is a war you are intent on winning. Call it Gorilla tactics However if one was willing to accept the possibility of defeat (ie: put ones life( worldview) on the line) then one would tend to engage in open, winner-takes-all pitched battle
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