The Bible Unearthed - Exodus

Hi fortenberry!fort:
Finally, I also have a rather minor and simple question for judge.
What date is given in Acts 13? I have read the chapter several times and have yet to findjudge:
If we read 1 kings 6(?) we see that it plainly says there was a period of 480 years from entering cannaan until the construction of the temple (fourth year of solomons reign I think). I don't have a bible here but I think this is right.Read acts chapter 13 and add up the years provided there. I think there is 450 years of judges, 40 years of David, 40 for saul etc...
IOW if we add Sauls reign, Davids reign, the period of the judges etc...it clearly comes to more than 480 years.
480 years is given in the hebrew massoretic text, but the LXX says 440 IIRC.These deatils may be wrong (I don't have them in fromt of me now)
But if you check you will see that both sets of numbers cannot be true.
Setterfield gives one possible explanation in the link I provided above.

Answers...I. The authors use an archeological timeline.
II. We have records which suggest that the Egyptians made use of migrant, seasonal labour. I am personally unaware of any records regarding slaves.
III. Don't know.
IV. There was a succession of Egyptian kings named Ramesses from circa 1300 to 1070 BCE.
V. The Egyptians had in place fortifications in the northern Sinai, Gaza, and Canaan as far north as the border with what is now Syria. As to the exact number of these fortifications and to what extent they were staffed, I really don't know except to say that it appears that the locals (especially in Canaan) paid the Egyptians to provide this service as a form of protection from invasion by northern neighbours.
VI. Archeologists are very adept at discovering evidence of human habitation, especially with regard to the alleged wanderings of some 2 million people over a period of forty years. Re: change of clothes - the longest wearing set of jeans I ever had lasted me three years, and I only wore them once a week.
VII. Yes.
VIII. Don't know.
IX. I don't understand the nature or intent of your question.
X. Fairly certain.
XI. During the time of the alleged Exodus, Edom is believed to have been inhabited by Bedouins.

More Questions...I. Which archeological timeline did they use?
II. How many records of Egyptian life do we have that were written during the period that the Hebrews were in Egypt?
III. Then it follows that you do not know who built the city of Ramesses, or why it was built. Do you possibly know whether the city currently refered to as Ramesses is the came one that the Hebrews built?
IV. Acoording to which timeline? What about generals or statesmen?
V. How far apart were these garrisons placed?
VI. Let me break this one down a little further.
a. How did you arrive at the number of 2 million?
b. Do you know how long the Israelites stayed at each location during their journey?
c. Can they hope to find evidence of passage when the Israelites' diet consisted almost entirely of manna and when they had strict laws regarding excretions?
VII. Then are you already aware of that fatal error within the book in question?
VIII. How then do can archeologists say Israel never dwelt there if they are not even aware of the length of occupation?
IX. There are places in America which have names and yet are not occupied, could this have also been the case for some of the sites that Israel travelled through?
X. Can you provide supporting evidence?
XI. Can you provide supporting evidence?

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Can they hope to find evidence of passage when the Israelites' diet consisted almost entirely of manna and when they had strict laws regarding excretions?

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You mean do we have any evidence of their movements during this period?I'm not sure how we would investigate, but we could at least go through the motions.

I. How many are there? No webpage found at provided URL: http://chaos1.hypermart.net/egypt/tae.htmlII. What information I have found puts the Exodus around 1200-1100 BC. This is well into recorded history. I can't find a total for the number of records we have from the time period.III. This doesn't follow.IV. Look at the timeline in the link above.V. You might find this interesting. Access deniedVI. a. Numbers 1 gives the size of the male members of the various tribes. Extrapolate to include women and children, and viola.b. Not really. The Bible isn't specific in all cases. However, some stays were considerable. The camp around Mt. Sinai for example. Still, with numbers of the size purported in Numbers, a one day stay would leave a huge footprint.c. So the israelites didn't excrete? And to which dietary laws do you refer?VII. Feel like being less cryptic?VIII. A population of the size of the purported Israelite population would leave so much evidence you couldn't miss it. A one night's stay would leave tens of thousands of fire pits for example, and these scattered over several square miles.IX. Sure. Maybe some named sites were never camps.X. and XI. ------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com

What about generals or statesmen?Well, I suppose it's possible that there was a janitor named Raameses for whom the Egyptians named the city. However, there appears to be general agreement among historians and archeologists that the city was named after king Raameses II. The guy was, after all, a warrior and a city builder. The problem is, Ram II's reign falls considerably outside of the biblical Exodus timeframe, and therein lies one of the many problems associated with the biblical account.I note that, in my absence, others have attempted to answer your numerous questions. However, I would suggest to you that peppering a thread with (often pointless) questions is a rather poor substitute for discussion, especially questions of the form: "Can you provide supporting evidence?".You can probably answer many of your own questions by employing a search engine such as Google or by obtaining a copy of the book which I referenced in the intro to this thread, after which, I look forward to discussing some of these issues with you.[This message has been edited by Orion, 04-07-2003]

Hi W-fortenberry This depends on when you think that the Hebrews were in Egypt, do you have any suggestions as to when this would be?There are literally tens of thousands of Egyptian records covering the beginning of the second millenium right up to the end of the 21st Dynasty. If you want to count insciptions, scarabs, seals and ostraca, then there are literally hundreds of thousands of Egyptian records. Not a single one refers to Israelites in Egypt.You may be interested in reading more about these records, go to a library and find some books on:The Amarna Letters
Ebla Tablets
Mari Texts
Ugarit Texts (ras shamra)
Palestine List of Thothmosis IIIThese are just a few of the texts used for illuminating Egyptian and Palestinian history, I am sure you can find a lot more at any decent library. He may not know as it may not be his specific area of study, but archaeologist know for certain that Rameses II ordered this city to be built. The city itself has many inscriptions that refer to Rameses II, there are also many documents in existence that confirm that Rameses II built this city. A good book to read on the subject is John D Schmidt's Ramesses II : A Chronologicl Structure for His Reign John Hopkins University Press, Baltimore 1973.There's also a very good article in The Journal of Egyptian Archaeology vol 34, The Egyptian Exploration Society, Oxford University Press, Oxford, 1948 pp57-74. Written by M. B. Rowton.Rowton's article is entitled Manetho's date for Ramesses II and covers the dating methods used for finding the years that Ramesses reigned. His reign is fixed by astronomical data and by mentions in external contemporary sources. It is quite complex and if you have difficulty finding it then I could scan it and convert the article to a word doc and email it to you, just let me know, of course you have to delete the article after reading it.The city that the 'Hebrews' claimed to build may not indeed be Rameses, but what Finkelstein points out, quite correctly, is that if this mention of Rameses is an anachronism then it follows that there are other anachronisms in the Bible and that these anachronisms erode the reliability of the Bible narrative. John J Bimson argues in his book Redating the Exodus and Conquest Journal for the Study of the Old Testament, Sheffield, 1978, that the city built by the Hebrews was in fact 'Qantir'. However, this has been totally rejected now because of the complete lack of supporting data. Bimson's book sold a lot of copies so you may be able to find it in a decent library, certainly a good uni library will have it.One of the aims of Finkelstein and Silberman's book is to prove that the Hebrew Bible as we have it is a construct of the 7th c BCE, all the anachronisms that they point out simply improve their case.Best WishesBrian.

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I would suggest to you that peppering a thread with (often pointless) questions is a rather poor substitute for discussion, especially questions of the form: "Can you provide supporting evidence?".

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I am sorry that you feel that way. If you would show me which of my questions you view as pointless, I would be more than happy to reveal to you my reasons for asking that question. For the most part though, I have asked questions for one of two reasons?First, I am not as familiar with the evidence and reasoning behind modern archeological opinion as I would like to be, so I have asked some questions in an attempt to locate and analyze it. Brian Johnston has presented several texts which I will be looking up. Perhaps they will answer the questions that I asked for this reason.Second, many who discuss the differences between the Bible and archeology do so out of ignorance of the Biblical text. I have asked several questions simply to guage the biblical knowledge of those participating in this discussion.For instance, the opening post of this discussion states, "The Bible (Deut. 1:46, 2:14) tells us that these Hebrews spent a considerable amount of time (perhaps 38 out of 40 years) encamped in and around Kadesh-barnea in the Sinai." This is simply not true. However, rather than make unnecessary accusations, I chose first to verify whether the participants were familiar with the passages in question. From the answers which I have received, I must conclude that they are not. I must also conclude that if the initial post accurately represents the views of Israel Finkelstein and if he is as knowledgable about the Scriptures as he claims to be, then Mr. Finkelstein is somewhat prone to lying in order to prove his theories. The verses between Deuteronomy 1:46 and 2:14 state that the Israelites did not remain in kadesh-barnea for 38 years. In fact, Numbers chapter 33 lists 41 places that the Israelites inhabited between leaving Egypt and crossing Jordan. Mr. Finkelstein has either lied about his knowledge of the Bible, or he has lied in attributing to it claims which it has never made.Along the same lines, many opponents to the Bible are unfamiliar with the diet and hygiene which was maintained by the Israelites during their wanderings. Exodus 16:35 states that "the children of Israel did eat manna forty years." According to Leviticus 11:35 we know that the Israelites used ovens and ranges to prepare their food not fire pits. Exodus 15 and 17 tell us that they were not dependent on natural sources of water. A casual reading of the Pentateuch will reveal many such statements that must be considered when one attempts to compare archeological records with the claims of the Bible.

First, I am not as familiar with the evidence and reasoning behind modern archeological opinion as I would like to be...I understand this, and it's quite acceptable....Mr. Finkelstein is somewhat prone to lying in order to prove his theories.Mr. Finkelstein has either lied about his knowledge of the Bible, or he has lied in attributing to it claims which it has never made.And this is where you fall into a hole. You've already stated that you're not up to date on modern archeological findings, and yet you accuse this man of 'lying'? Render unto me a break![This message has been edited by Orion, 04-13-2003]

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You've already stated that you're not up to date on modern archeological findings, and yet you accuse this man of 'lying'?

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Please notice the format of the accusation. I stated that Mr. Finkelstein lied about the Bible. I am not in a position to make the same accusation regarding his archeological finds, but I have provided certain proof that the initial post on this thread attributes to Mr. Finkelstein a lie about the Bible.

I stated that Mr. Finkelstein lied about the Bible.It's one thing to argue that an author is misinformed or incorrect, or that perhaps you don't agree with his position, but it's quite another to accuse the author of lying. You have demonstrated no basis for this absurd accusation.A sidebar question: If Finkelstein's (apparent) thesis that the biblical Exodus story is mostly fictional in that there exists no supporting evidence in its favour is correct (and he is not alone in this opinion), would your world come crashing down? Would your faith be shaken to it's core?[This message has been edited by Orion, 04-15-2003]

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It's one thing to argue that an author is misinformed or incorrect, or that perhaps you don't agree with his position, but it's quite another to accuse the author of lying. You have demonstrated no basis for this absurd accusation.

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Mr. Finkelstein claims to know the biblical account of Israelite history. He even refers to specific biblical passages in his books and articles. However, according to the first post on this thread, Mr. Finkelstein claims that the biblical account allows for a stay of thirty-eight years in kadesh-barnea. As already stated, this claim is false; the biblical account presents no such allowance. Thus, "Mr. Finkelstein has either lied about his knowledge of the Bible, or he has lied in attributing to it claims which it has never made."

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A sidebar question: If Finkelstein's (apparent) thesis that the biblical Exodus story is mostly fictional in that there exists no supporting evidence in its favour is correct (and he is not alone in this opinion), would your world come crashing down? Would your faith be shaken to it's core?

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Faith that can be shaken is no longer faith.

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However, according to the first post on this thread, Mr. Finkelstein claims that the biblical account allows for a stay of thirty-eight years in kadesh-barnea.

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I've been looking into this a bit. In a previous post the statement was made to the effect that the Isrealites spent up to 38 years in and around kadesh-barnea. Well, by looking at a map of the region and comparing place names -- as near as I can determine the names are appropriate to the time in question-- on the map with those in Numbers, it does appear that the Isrealites spent a great deal of time in and around kadesh-barnea. Looks like the places mentioned are all within about 150 miles, and many are much closer. Distances like that are nothing to nomadic herding peoples. For some perspective, if I am not mistaken, the trip from Mt. Horeb to kadesh-barnea was an eleven day trip and the distance is about 300 miles or so. Basically, it looks to me like the statement that they lived in and around kadesh-barnea for 38 years is pretty accurate.------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com

I've been looking into this a bit. In a previous post the statement was made to the effect that the Isrealites spent up to 38 years in and around kadesh-barnea.Well, yes and no. That is the biblical interpretation. However, archeologists have thus far been unable to discover evidence of habitation of Kadesh-Barnea by anyone of the alleged Exodus magnitude during the Exodus timeframe. Upwards of two million people cannot but leave evidence of their prolonged presence within a region.

I was only addressing the assertion by ws_fortenberry that Finkelstein(?) is lying or ignorant. If you read the Biblical account, compare it to the maps, it is reasonable enough to say that according to the Biblical account the Isrealites lived in and around kadesh-barnea for about 38 years. That is the only point I meant to make.------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com[This message has been edited by John, 04-17-2003]