Jazzns writes:
They [Israel] are the ones getting the bad press because they are doing bad things.
So you've said.
No not because I have said. Because I have experienced and also because I have provided evidence in support of my experiences. Evidence which you have yet to refute other than your personal conspiracy theory that everyone hates Israel. Wanton generalizations are tell tale signs of a bad argument on this forum; especially when the only support they are accompanied by is personal beliefs rather than evidence.
OK, if I am aware of the situation I will.
Yet even in this post I cannot tell what you have read and what you have not. I must now assume that you have read it and are ignoring the evidence and arguments out of your own personal incredulity. Repetition of your position does not make it stronger.
So you say and I don't buy it. It usually turns out to be victim politics being played against Israel's reasonable defensive operations, though I wouldn't claim they've never done ANYTHING out of bounds, just not the heinous crimes they are constantly accused of.
It took me about 20 minutes to compile those lists of links from reputable news sources. They confirm the stories. Notice that I did not put all I could have. I only looked back as far as 2004 most of the time. That leaves us about 50 more years of events during occupation that probably aren't on any major news sources search engine.
The truth is that everyone, even the allies of Israel have expressed disapproval over their reckless disregard for human rights. We know they use civilians as human shields. We know they target children. We know they have tortured and maimed civilians. We know they bulldoze the homes of innocent civilians. We know that their idea of precision strikes against militants is a misnomer. We know there is a constant state of harassment. All of this is evidenced by the links I posted and you have yet to post anything other then your own disregard as a rebuttal. Your choice to ignore this is not a refutation and therefore my evidence backed claims stand. You cannot hand wave this away based simply on your disbelief!
jazzns writes:
you are defending their blameless honor so ferociously. Why is that?
As I said, I'm convinced of it and convinced of the duplicity on the other side. And again, though it may appear that I consider them "blameless" that's not my point. Nobody's blameless. I just see the deck as stacked against them overall.
Forgive me if I fail to take what you are "convinced" of and what you "just see" as compelling.
The accusations against them turn out to be exaggerations for effect or outright fabrications.
Based on what? The fact that the stories collaborate against different new sources? The fact that the record is littered with examples of human rights violations even reported by Jewish groups? Or are they fabrications because you believe that there is this grand conspiracy that the BBC, CNN, MSNBC, and FOX are all part of or pawns of? That in a world where the number 1 superpower is pro-Israel, where Europe is becoming more and more anti-Moslem, that somehow everyone is working hard to make Israel look bad?
NO! Even the countries that
are Pro-Israel condemn them for their actions. This position is
pure dogma.
This seems to be ideology-driven -- Islam's ultimate aim to subject the entire world to Allah, plus "Israel must be in the wrong because Israel has success and strength."
You need to
establish that the world is actually this way instead of just believing it and writing down your beliefs in this forum. You will find very little actual defiance against Israel from any western country.
Israel is not wrong because they have strength. Israel is wrong because they are using their strength to crush innocent people.
You have yet to refute this!
Finally Europe is waking up to the growing threat, that's all, and it's pretty little and maybe too late.
Which is a blatant contradiction of your position! Why then would they propagate these "
lies" of IDF human rights violations?
Muslims want concessions that are alien to European culture.
How is being able to wear a scarf to school a concession? To me that sounds like wanting personal freedom and tolerance.
We have always required newcomers to assimilate to our societies in the West but now there is this demand that we submit to the demands of the newcomers, tail wagging dog, cart before horse. America was always known as a Melting Pot. Now it's becoming a pot of indigestible clashing ingredients.
Only because of people like you who perceive someone different as a threat to you way of life. Lookout! There is a Moslem behind that tree trying to convert you or kill out! Instead of trying to understand them, lets just condemn and annihilate them!
I used to think that this kind of attitude was going the way of the dinosaur. I though, "Americans are slowly loosing that attitude that justified the heinous atrocities we committed to people of different cultures in our history." Then I have discussions like this and I get so saddened by the fact that I am wrong. That this type of thinking persists and fuels the "history repeats itself" freight train of intolerace and destruction.
I know you think you have some kind of insight into the Moslem world from whatever you studied since 9/11. I am also willing to wager that you have read very little pro-Moslem material or have actually tried to investigate the culture from an anthropological standpoint. I am nearly certain that all you have read has been criticisms of Islam and Arab culture. Tell us what you have studied Faith. Prove me wrong. Show me that your objections come from actual understanding of what you are talking about.
"Discriminate?" No, that is part of the false ideology that is creating the problem.
No its part of the actual events that have happened in current events.
BBC NEWS | Europe | Bavaria bans teacher headscarves
The French ban all religious symbols but since Moslems are the only ones required to wear certain clothing is it blatant discrimination and a blatant violation of the basic human right to freedom of speech and religion.
BBC NEWS | Europe | Saintly chocs hit by French ban
Islamic fundamentalism of the worst kind, created from the Wahhabi sect out of Saudi Arabia, which is what inspired Osama Bin Laden and his team of 9/11 hijackers, is being preached in 80% of American mosques.
YOU NEED TO BACK THIS UP WITH EVIDENCE!!!! I HAVE BEEN TO AMERICAN MOSQUES! This is total bullshit and I won't let you just claim this without proof Faith! You cant just make these outrageous claims and pretend like everyone is going to believe you!
This fundamentalism is implacably hostile to America and the West. We are being asked to accommodate to teachings that are inimical to our fundamental institutions and our well-being, even our very existence, as a culture and a nation.
So what would you have us do based on your careless accusations? Repeal the first amendment so we can make America a Christian theocracy? You need to
show how America is "accommidating" teachings that prove dangerous to our existence. Hint, it is really easy! All you have to do is show pictures of the KKK, the Black Panthers, Neo-Nazi rallies. We do enough "accommidating" of opposition in this country of our own construction because
WE HAVE FREEDOMS in this country. No need to try to find the evil jihadist Moslem hiding in the bushes who learned to kill Americans on the American dollar. You already have Osamma Bin Laden for that but that was
not done within our culture.
Contrary to what you say about opposition to Islam, there is very little of that
BS. See links above. Intolerance of Islam is spreading via cultural and legal avenues all over the world.
but a strong movement of support for just these hostile attitudes as if they were covered under our First Amendment, in essence claiming our Constitution calls for the death of our Constitution.
BS again. Our constitution specifically allows for dissent. Conflicting opinion as to the direction of our country is specifically protected free-speech and right to petition even if the conflict is radical. That is why we allow groups like PETA, pro-life groups with violent agendas, communists, nazis, right-wing conservative who want to turn this country in to a theocracy, people who think we should invade Canada for their wood and oil, alien conspiracy theorists,
all to have their speech protected by the 1st amendment.
Canada is already being asked to accommodate to Muslim Sharia Law -- just in Muslim communities so far-- but Sharia Law couldn't be more alien to Western Law. It does not belong in our societies at all.
All Canada is doing is allowing people to set up their own communities like they like with adherence to Canadian law. Just like we let the Amish live in communities with their own rules of conduct for example.
I am defining Islam based on the Koran and the Hadiths
This is why I have to repeat myself. Because I have to assume you didn't read my next post that REPEATED AGAIN that the Hadith is not considered the word of God to most Moslems!
Lets try it again for clarity. The Hadith is not the word of God to most Moslems.
Now in italics.
The Hadith is not the word of God to most Moslems.
Now in a quote box:
The Hadith is not the word of God to most Moslems.
What part of this are you having so much trouble understanding?
and the historical interpretation of those texts which has produced centuries of bloody subjugation of the Infidel wherever Islam has had the upper hand. And I have been looking for the quote from our old friend the Ayatollah Khomeini of Iran who says right out that the Koran calls for war against the infidel and it's only cowardice and faithlessness to Islam that interferes. He quotes the directives.
Ayatollah Khomeini does not even represent anything close to the majority of Moslems. One example does not a religion make! How many times have we told this to you? How many times have we said that radical Christians also do this and are not indicative of "normal" Christianity?
Sure, call him an extremist
I do!
but he's got the texts on his side
He has got a text on his side called the Hadith and we have already covered the Hadith hopefully for the last time.
and he is not the only one. All the "extremist" leaders are simply being true to what is written. It is the moderates and the mild ones who are NOT true to what is written.
IN WRITINGS THAT THEY DO NOT REGARD AS THE WORD OF GOD!!!!!
They have more common sense than what is written perhaps, but the point is that these "extremists" are simply true followers of Mohammed. They are true Islam.
No they are not! Now I am convinced that you skip posts. Either that or it is in one ear and out the other. Radical Moslems are as equally capable of twisting the Koran and using
supplemental texts as radical Christians do all the time with the Bible.
More importantly.
YOU DO NOT GET TO DEFINE WHAT A TRUE MOSLEMS IS! THEY DO!
The comparison is false.
Faith healers and snake handlers have a "directive".
Mark 16:18 - they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well
True Christianity is obedience to the Bible and those strict sects who interpret the Bible as you are describing have no inclination to persecute or harm anyone anyway, even if they are bad Bible exegetes.
And mainstream Islam only does in your head.
True Muslims are likewise true to their texts but their texts advocate subjugation of the infidel and jihad and there is a ton of history of Muslim obedience to those directives going all the way back.No, the apt comparisons are violence with violence, and much is trumped up about the Crusades, the Inquisition and murderers of abortionists in the service of that comparison, which I've already answered. The first was a legitimate war, and the last two violate the spirit of Christianity. There is no comparison with the violence of Islam which is written in the texts.
Where did I say anything about the Crusades, the Inquisition, or anti-abortionists as basing their beliefs in the Bible? That doesn't mean that there is not other ways to twist scripture.
MOST Muslims are not fundamentalists. They do not take the written texts as seriously as the jihadis do, the ones you keep trying to dismiss as extremists as if they distorted the texts. They do not. They are true to the texts. The Hadiths are the views of THE Prophet Mohammed after all and the strictest followers adhere to them.
You keep saying this and repeating it does not make it any more accurate. Since I have already addressed this in this response I'll leave it.
The Left doesn't have a clue about tolerance and diversity.
You just get more and more offensive the longer you stick around.
They've redefined both in bogus terms and their whole aim is to destroy what REAL tolerance and diversity always meant in our culture.
What is the "REAL tolerance and diversity" and when was it EVER "meant in our culture"? Oh I see you give a bad answer next.
Tolerance is originally civil behavior and kindness toward those of differing beliefs
And explain when have we ever had this?
but it is now defined as CAPITULATION to the demands of differing beliefs even if they destroy the established culture.
Your list of claims grows ever longer Faith. That is not the kind of liberal I am. That is not the kind of liberal organizations I support. How about backing up what you say when you make an outrageous claim huh?
That is not tolerance that is suicide.
That is a strawman.
And this destructive travesty is enforced with a fanatical righteous indignation these days.
Tolerance is being enforced? Where? Thats news to me! I know there are people screaming to "please give us tolerance and acceptance which is our right under the Constitution and the basic ideals of human rights". You may interpret this protest as "enforcement" but that is bullshit.
In fact the purveyors of this leftist revisionist definition have just about ZERO "tolerance" for anybody who disagrees with them about this or anything else.
They are intolerant of the intolerant. That is not hypocritical.
They have NO notion of the true meaning of the term. They are nasty, scornful, sneering and often violent in the service of their upside down revisionist value system.
Oh the ideal that has been a written part of our law and part of the declaration that gave us our freedom. That ideal that "all men are created equal" and that all are "endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights" and I will refrain from pasting the entire bill of rights in this post! The ideal that created this country to protect everyone from the self-righteous ideology that comes from people with hate in their hearts. That upside down revisionist value system Faith?
They have redefined "diversity" into "multiculturalism" which is hostile to the dominant culture and the complete reversal of true Western respect for diversity which is respect for IDEAS, BELIEFS, intellectual freedom, freedom of conscience, and even these have been distorted by the left.
There is no such thing as the "dominant culture" defined by law. If I am wrong then show me that I am wrong rather than claiming it.
What exactly is intellectual freedom and freedom of conscience and how does our currently bill of rights and the left support of civil liberties which supports that bill of rights contradictory to these freedoms? You should probably start a new thread.
For instance, Sharia Law is opposed to individual freedom, has absolute requirements for all kinds of behaviors, and extreme punishments like cutting off hands and stoning adulterers to death. There is no way to "tolerate" Sharia Law in a culture that prizes individual freedom, but this is exactly what Leftist activists seem determined to bring about.
Uh no. Cutting off hands and stoning is illegal. This will not be made legal. "The Left" is not fighting for this and it is incumbent upon you to show that it is as you claim.
Because they just tried to kill us. The Left is happy with anything that tries to kill America and our Western/Christian heritage.
Coming from "the left", I don't want anything to kill America or my Christian heritage. I value these things very much. Once again I prove your wrong simply by my existence. This will be another claim distilled from your rant that you have no support for.
jazzns writes:
Which Moslem leaders? Name them please and provide quotes. Then establish that this is representative of many Moslem leaders . You do not get a free lunch on this forum sorry.
Read what I posted about Joan Peters. She named a particular Jerusalem Mufti. Kramer said she was wrong to accuse him of direct participation in the Holocaust but quite right that he was a Nazi supporter. Sure, I'll put the requirement for evidence for this on my growing list of things I have to prove here that nobody else cares to check out. I've proved a ton of stuff already, but there's more out there.
Now that you have shown that some supported the Holocaust. Now you must show the important part of you claim which was:
though many Muslim leaders also supported Hitler
One does not equal many, and even if you somehow dig out something representative of "many" you still only have an extremely tiny portion of the Moslem people represented. Looks like you have a lot of work to do Faith.
{ABE}
Retractions or evidence are still pending for:
1. There is no such thing as a Palestinian People.
2. All Israeli military action is against terrorists.
You have read the forum guidelines haven't you?
This message has been edited by Jazzns, 02-26-2005 11:17 AM
This message has been edited by Jazzns, 02-26-2005 11:59 AM
Changed "a religious text" to "the word of God" for clarity.
Fixed some typos.
This message has been edited by Jazzns, 02-26-2005 12:04 AM
By the way, for a fun second-term drinking game, chug a beer every time you hear the phrase, "...contentious but futile protest vote by democrats." By the time Jeb Bush is elected president you will be so wasted you wont even notice the war in Syria.
-- Jon Stewart, The Daily Show
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