|
Register | Sign In |
|
QuickSearch
EvC Forum active members: 64 (9164 total) |
| |
ChatGPT | |
Total: 916,902 Year: 4,159/9,624 Month: 1,030/974 Week: 357/286 Day: 13/65 Hour: 0/1 |
Thread ▼ Details |
|
Thread Info
|
|
|
Author | Topic: Lions and natural selection | ||||||||||||||||||||||||
redstang281 Inactive Member |
quote: I explained it. The best father lion would be one who is not only containing good genes, but also one who is young enough to defend the cubs, tribe, mate.. etc.
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||
redstang281 Inactive Member |
quote: I believe if anyone studies the Bible's without limiting themselves to any other beliefs of origin they will find the Bible's teachings are clear. I might site myself as an example. 5 years ago I didn't know there were people such as creationists who supported genesis scientifically. However I read the Bible and came to the conclusion that the world was only 6-10 thousand years. I could go on, but I'm not really trying to get down a rabbit hole away from the topic.
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||
redstang281 Inactive Member |
So are we done fella's?
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||
mark24 Member (Idle past 5224 days) Posts: 3857 From: UK Joined: |
quote: The lion doesn’t have to know about the consequences of its actions. All that matters is that there are consequences, & that they ultimately affect the gene frequency of the population. Killing cubs of other predators is explained fairly easily. They are easy meat. The action also makes the environment friendlier to the lion, in that it ultimately reduces competition. Consider two hypothetical populations of lions, A & B. In population A, lions do not kill cubs (of other predators). In population B, they do. In population B, there is less competition for food, & more food, in the form of cubs. This behaviour is selected for, as it increases the likelihood of the survival of the genes responsible for the behaviour in the first place. In this case, it’s probably just an existing trait, they routinely go for young of their normal prey species, again, easy meat, just that predator cubs bring extra advantages. Now, in population A, this doesn’t happen, no gene is selected for, so NS doesn’t occur. But consider, if population A & B are sexually overlapping, the successful gene becomes more & more fixed in both populations, because it brings advantages, sooner or later, the responsible alleles of population A cease to exist, the entire population having the successful gene B. The lion doesn’t organise anything, sexual reproduction, recombination, gene flow, NS, & neutral drift does the organising. Behaviours are the result of NS as much as anatomical traits.In answer to your question, where did the ancestral behaviour come from (to coin my own phrase), genetic evidences collectively suggest that the raw material of differing information, & therefore differing behaviour, is mutation, that changed the expression of a protein ultimately responsible for feeding behaviour, meaning that the lion would target other species cubs, that new allele would then be subject to natural selection. This fixed allele was built upon a shed load of other fixed alleles. I have already postulated how this may have become a behaviour by which a lion will kill other lion cubs.
quote: Again, any mutant allele that predisposes the father to favour his own cubs in ANY way, will provide a means of safeguarding them, & passes that mutant allele on to his cubs who now have a greater chance of survival. That paternal gene is still subject to mutation, & any that increase the paternal instinct of the father, increases the likelihood of the survival of that allele.
quote: Any lion breeds to distribute their genes, whether they know it or not. But it’s not necessarily such a good filter. The future fitness of the pride may just as easily benefit more by having the existing alpha remain, rather than getting a new one. As long as the older/injured lion can breed, his genes MAY be better than any young pretender, even if his current PHYSICAL fitness isn’t. The more I look at genetics, the more it looks like the genes use the organism as vehicle, rather than the organism uses the genes. For example. The only real reason an alpha male would kill the cubs of his predecessor is to ensure his genes go on into infinity, & not the other guys. It’s not as ridiculous as it first sounds. Consider, this gene has been able to affect lion behaviour so that his genes go through to the next round. His offspring also have that gene (half of them anyway), he is a dominant male, so his offspring should also be fit, & the males stand a good a chance as any to get to the alpha position. Now, the gene makes sure no other cubs survive except his own. This gene has devised a way to get itself fixed into the general lion population much faster than by NS alone, at the EXPENSE of other members of the species, & at the potential EXPENSE of the lion population as a whole.
quote: That infanticide happens in animals is known, but has the reason why? If you think it has, then by all means, please produce the paper/study. If you can’t do that, then I put it to you that it hasn’t. If you can produce a study, then you have probably answered your own question far better than I! quote: That Lions exhibit this behaviour is neither evidence for an ID or NS. No one is saying it’s the product of NS alone. Mark ------------------Occam's razor is not for shaving with.
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||
Quetzal Member (Idle past 5901 days) Posts: 3228 Joined: |
quote: Nope. I'll get back to you tomorrow. Right now is coming up on midnight local and I want to get some sleep. G'night...
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||
joz Inactive Member |
quote: Really I thought this was evolution v`s creation not bible study monthly hence precisely the place where I should point out that your idea of what ToE postulates makes you look ridiculous...... And which correct representation of the bible would that be? a)That of the single largest christian sect? b)Or the one dogmatically adhered to by a small but vocal minority here in the states? If a) then your bible had better have a picture of an old Polish guy who lives in Rome in it...... If b) what makes 40 million smarter than about 3.6 billion? It is critical, if you don`t like it stop posting asinine misstatements of the oppositions position or grow some thicker skin......
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||
KingPenguin Member (Idle past 7912 days) Posts: 286 From: Freeland, Mi USA Joined: |
quote: im gonna be an jerk all the time to you joz, just for saying that last bit.a)thats a pretty dumb statement, moron!!! discrimation and reverse-discrimination suck ass, later. ------------------"Overspecialize and you breed in weakness" -"Major" Motoko Kusanagi
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||
joz Inactive Member |
quote: 1)Oh dear what shall I do KP is going to bad to me.... a)Any idea who that Polish fella is pal? the head of the worlds single largest religion thats who..... b)Wrong you are a vocal MINORITY in america..... 2)Whats this some sort of if I ran the world wish list? Grow up.... Would you like a chip for your other shoulder....
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||
lbhandli Inactive Member |
Why don't you move this to a new thread. I would appreciate it and maybe you could make a strong case instead of taunting him. Thanks,
Larry
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||
KingPenguin Member (Idle past 7912 days) Posts: 286 From: Freeland, Mi USA Joined: |
quote: a)im not in the worlds largest religion, and the downfall of catholics is there government. they have to many people ruling and they blur the image of christ and the message of the bible. you connection to god should be direct, not through a line of nobles. most people only declare there faith in god during church and that isnt letting christ know that you love him and have faith in him for saving your soul from eternal damnation.b)thats what i was rambling on about, it was just recently that society accepted science this much, i was just saying your lucky of your freedom of speech, just as i am. ------------------"Overspecialize and you breed in weakness" -"Major" Motoko Kusanagi
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||
joz Inactive Member |
Understood I was merely pointing out that the largest christian (largest full stop actually) sect in the world is catholisism.... Thus more people believe in that particular interpretation than any other...
By the way did you check out the proof of 1+1=2 yet? it has its own thread.... take a look if you haven`t you never know when it may come in handy....
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||
Quetzal Member (Idle past 5901 days) Posts: 3228 Joined: |
I guess I made it too easy the first time around.
quote: There are a few things you are apparently unfamiliar with re: lions. Perhaps if I explain a bit more about the details of this behavior, maybe you'll be able to figure out why it might have developed. I. What is a pride?- lions are the most sexually dimorphic of all cats - lions are extremely territorial due to limited resources in their particular environment - African lions (Panthera leo) are a social species, forming a pride of up to ten+ animals - prides consist of a group of closely-related females (mothers, daughters, sisters, nieces, etc.) - the pride also consists of a small group of resident males - two or three is the usual number - the males are usually related to each other but not related to the females - this situation arises because females reaching sexual maturity remain in the pride where they were born whereas males must leave the pride upon maturity. These males form "coalitions" for survival. - Most solitary males do not survive to reproduce because of both inefficient solitary hunting techniques and inability to takeover an existing pride II. Lion reproductive biology- female lions have synchronous estrus (all females in a pride come in to estrus at roughly the same time) - it takes an average of 5 estrus cycles to produce one litter - females (other things being equal) come into estrus once every two years - cubs remain "immature" (i.e., cubs) for 3 (female) or 4 (male) years - average life expectancy is 8-10 years III. Male takeover- males must fight and defeat the group of resident males in order to gain control of the pride. These battles will often result in severe wounding or even death for both participants. - the average time that male lions maintain control of a pride is only about 2 years. - because residence in the pride is the key to reproductive success of male lions, they quickly begin trying to father cubs. - one impediment to quick fatherhood is the presence of still-nursing cubs, because females do not return to breeding condition until their cubs are weaned. - male lions overcome this problem by killing ANY cubs in the pride that are not weaned. - this strategy results in females returning to breeding condition an average of 8 months earlier than they otherwise would. - about 25% of all cub mortality in the first year is caused by infanticide and about 10% of overall lion mortality. - once a pride is taken over, coalition males rarely if ever fight amongst themselves. All females are shared. In other words, infanticide takes place because male lion coalitions have a very limited time to reproduce and simply can't wait for a normal estrus cycle - especially with all the females in a given pride entering estrus at roughly the same time. Why don't females defend their cubs? They do, occasionally. However, unlike most solitary species, there is a net negative opportunity cost: males will just as quickly kill a recalcitrant female as they will cubs. The "fight-to-the-death" option is seldom exercised. If you'd like more information, see this article for a lot of good information on lion behavior. I hope this answers your quibble.
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||
redstang281 Inactive Member |
quote: And I will save this quote for the very next time I see someone attacking the Bible.
[b] [QUOTE]
where I should point out that your idea of what ToE postulates makes you look ridiculous......[/b][/QUOTE] I must confess I'm unimpressed.
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||
joz Inactive Member |
quote: Ok provide reference to a paper by a credible author that claims all lifes common ancestor is a rock..... If you can`t it seems fairly ridiculous to claim that evolution claims so..... [This message has been edited by joz, 02-13-2002]
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||
nator Member (Idle past 2199 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Excellent suggestion, will do.
|
|
|
Do Nothing Button
Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved
Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024