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Author Topic:   Is Abiogenesis a fact?
FutureIncoming
Inactive Member


Message 151 of 303 (318397)
06-06-2006 5:02 PM


About Abiogensis...
And now to attempt to continue what I started toward the end of Msg #147, and continued in #150, hopefully without sticking my foot down my throat.
15. It turns out that I got ahead of myself by mentioning enzymes too soon. So let's look at "amino acids" for a bit. An amino acid is a particular type of generic molecule. It has two required subcomponents (an amino or NH2 group, and a carboxylic acid or COOH group), plus any of a variety of other subcomponents. All of the 20 best-known amino acids are fairly simple organic molecules, ranging from 10 atoms to 27 atoms in composition (including the 7 atoms of the required subcomponents). They also happen to be fairly easily created in a Primordial Soup environment. But more than 100 others are known to naturally exist, so that word I used, "generic", is applicable. Next, any two amino acids (even two of the same type) can chemically react with each other, simply because the reaction involves only the two required subcomponents: COOH + NH2 -> CO-OH + NH-H -> CONH (peptide bond between the two original molecules) + OHH (or H2O, water produced-by/ejected from the reaction). Note that if the amino group of Amino Acid 1 (AA1) reacts with the acid group of AA2, then the Combined Molecule still has a left-over acid group (from AA1) and a left-over amino group (from AA2). It is therefore possible for a third and a fourth and a fifth (and so on) amino acid to connect to either end of the Combined Molecule. The result is generically called a "polypeptide chain".
16. Polypeptide chains are fairly tough molecules; they don't fall apart for no reason. This means, in the Primordial Soup, they could randomly grow quite long. Biochemists generally start using the word "protein" when a polypeptide chain has connected from 50 to 100 amino acids together, and its weight is about 10,000 times that of a single hydrogen atom. (Nevertheless, there are exceptions; the "aspartame" molecule is made from just two amino acids and yet sometimes is called "a sweet protein" --it's used as a low-calorie sweetener.) I goofed earlier when I wrote in Item 7 that an enzyme can be a fairly simple molecule; actually an enzyme is often a fairly simple protein. Complicated proteins can easily weigh more than 1,000,000 times a hydrogen atom.
17. One of the things that polypeptide chains and proteins do is 'fold up". Chains of molecular bonds are naturally kinked, and when lots of bonds exist, involving different molecules like amino acids, you can have lots of kinks aiming every-which-way in 3 dimensions, and following such a chain is kind of like taking a "drunkard's walk" (a classic mathematical problem; look it up). Each kink represents a partial fold in the chain, and a long chain can can accumulate (or cancel out) those partial folds. Next, the subsections of amino acids that can differ from each other also can have various amounts of attraction for each other, which almost always add-to or contort or otherwise-affect the folds. A common result is that a well-folded chain tends to crumple into a ball (although plenty of exceptions exist to that simplistic statement). And a ball-shaped protein is one in which a significant fraction of the length of the chain has become covered up within its center. This is important because it "counters" one of the main arguments against Abiogensis. Let's consider a 70-unit chain randomly built from the 25 most common amino acids. Since any AA can occupy any place in the chain, a two-unit chain could exist 25x25=625 different ways, a three-unit chain could exist 25x25x25=15,625 different ways, and a 70-unit chain has 25-to-the-70th-power possibilities (a 7 followed by 97 zeros). There aren't enough atoms in the Universe for Nature to have expressed all those possibilities at once ("in parallel"), and not enough Age of the Universe for all those possibilities to be tried in sequence ("in series"), and even an optimal series/parallel approach might (or might not) only have just recently found it -- so if one particular 70-unit protein appears to us to be an enzyme required for a particular task, how did Nature find that enzyme billions of years ago, to say nothing of also finding thousands of other equally-special molecules?
18. Part of the answer relates to the "active site" on the outer surface of our folded protein (which in an enzyme would be the part that encourages Tab A to go into Slot B). It doesn't matter much what the complete composition of the protein is, so long as when folded it exhibits the relevant active site, a consequence of adjacent amino acid subcomponents. And how many ways are there to do that, eh? Remember that the pharmaceutical industry has put a lot of effort into finding alternatives to existing proteins, with equivalent active sites, and almost all of that work has been done blindly, not knowing all the rules by which proteins naturally fold up. And awkward side effects are typical, as you know (due to other active sites on that same alternative molecule). You can expect that as soon as those rules are thoroughly understood, then using computers we will be able to crank out alternative protein designs, with desired active sites, by the billion. Perhaps some will even be found that have no side-effects, but that is not so important here, because....
19. The other part of the answer is "evolution" -- and not particularly evolution of the protein molecule, but evolution of the dynamic system that happened to incorporate a particular protein molecule that happened to have an effective active site! This is an important point that I will try to explain more clearly. In the Primordial Soup, the first enzyme to come along to do something that later got incorporated into Life could indeed have had awkward side-effects. Well, Life has had billions of years to accommodate and even make use of those side-effects. But replace that protein with some new and different constructed drug, and even if it does the main thing as that Original Enzyme, it can be expected to have different side-effects for which there haven't been billions of years of accommodation. Thus the answer to the anti-abiogenesis problem in Item 17 is simply that the first random protein to come along that could work in a certain way is the one that nowadays seems to be a perfect fit in a complicated dynamic system, simply because the system grew around that molecule -- and around the first-encountered of many other proteins that also worked in certain ways. (The details of that, of course, mostly remain to be worked out.)
20. Note that the preceding is not a denial that molecular modifications take place. They do. In an energy rich environment, especially with random radiation zaps, it is a certainty that a molecule that does a certain task well is going to occasionally get randomly assembled differently from usual. A living system will either accommodate it or eject it or dismantle it and construct another, or perish. In the Primordial Soup, however, before there were any living systems, it is a moot point, partly because there was no Life-based manufacturing line for particular molecules, that could become fouled up. An Original Enzyme that did some particular thing was not going to be frequently replaced by a similar-acting but different protein.
To be continued.
Edited by FutureIncoming, : fixed typo

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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 152 of 303 (318546)
06-07-2006 12:40 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by SuperNintendo Chalmers
12-28-2005 7:03 PM


No, not a fact....
The truth is there is absolutely no real evidence to call abiogenesis a fact, at least on earth. For all we know, life was seeded on the earth from outer space.
Furthermore, we can't even say inaminate matter preceded life. It could be and probably is the other way around. Life could have preceded matter and helped to create or form matter. Of course, it would not be biological life.
The origin of biological life is a mystery as far as science is concerned or scientific facts are concerned, imo.

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Isaac
Inactive Member


Message 153 of 303 (319219)
06-08-2006 5:15 PM
Reply to: Message 151 by FutureIncoming
06-06-2006 5:02 PM


Re: No, not a fact....
From a scientific (naturalistic) perspective, it is logical to assert that abiogenesis occured (how else?). Obviously how exactly it occured is a big mystery to science. If you're a scientist you can't ever invoke the supernatural to explain the natural world (an inherent limitation of science, but that is the ways it works).
By the way I'm new here. I accept evolution as the best (only) scientific theory that adequately explains the diversity of life (not that this topic has anything to do with evolution). I'm also religious, though I keep (and advocate) that Science and Religion be kept quite separate. They are different realms of philosphy that are fundamentally opposed to each other.
Cheers

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AdminJar
Inactive Member


Message 154 of 303 (319238)
06-08-2006 5:44 PM
Reply to: Message 152 by randman
06-07-2006 12:40 AM


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    Chiroptera
    Inactive Member


    Message 155 of 303 (319241)
    06-08-2006 6:02 PM
    Reply to: Message 152 by randman
    06-07-2006 12:40 AM


    Re: No, not a fact....
    Welcome, Isana.
    quote:
    From a scientific (naturalistic) perspective, it is logical to assert that abiogenesis occured (how else?).
    I will add that the scientific (naturalistic) perspective does not dictate that we have to accept anything. Even if we were convinced that abiogenesis occurred (how else?), if all the scientific and laboratory investigations failed to provided possible pathways and processes, we would be forced to say, "We're pretty sure that abiogenesis occurred, but we don't have even the foggiest idea how." However, it turns out that the scientific and laboratory investigations do provided interesting clues as to possible processes, and so we can say, "We are pretty sure that abiogenesis occurred, and we have some ideas (foggy as they may be at the moment) as to how it might have occurred."

    "We must respect the other fellow's religion, but only in the same sense and to the extent that we respect his theory that his wife is beautiful and his children smart."
    -- H. L. Mencken (quoted on Panda's Thumb)

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    Isaac
    Inactive Member


    Message 156 of 303 (319354)
    06-08-2006 10:30 PM
    Reply to: Message 154 by AdminJar
    06-08-2006 5:44 PM


    Re: No, not a fact....
    Thanks for the welcome, adminJar and Chiroptera. Yes, I'd agree with your comments there Chiroptera, maybe i wasn't to clear above. Its my view that the creation/evolution controversy stems, in a large degree, from a fundamental ignorance of what science is about (from the creationist side). From my understanding, science makes the assumption that there are no supernatural forces at work in the universe (hence cannot attribute the origin of life to a supernatural event), and attempts to explain the natural world as best it can within this premise. Of course, being religiously inclined I believe this naturalistic framework has its limits, but as a scientist (well, in the process) I fully accept that science is meaningless without it. We should go where the evidence take us, however controversial it may be.
    Edited by Isana Kadeb, : No reason given.
    Edited by Isana Kadeb, : No reason given.

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    jar
    Member (Idle past 424 days)
    Posts: 34026
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004


    Message 157 of 303 (319363)
    06-08-2006 10:40 PM
    Reply to: Message 155 by Chiroptera
    06-08-2006 6:02 PM


    Re: No, not a fact....
    From my understanding, science makes the assumption that there are no supernatural forces at work in the universe (hence cannot attribute the origin of life to a supernatural event), and attempts to explain the natural world as best it can within this premise.
    Close. The problem is there is no way to test or verify something that is supernatural. If it could be observed and tested then it would no longer be supernatural.
    Once God is verifiable, observable and testable, then Science can consider it. But will it be God?

    Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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    crashfrog
    Member (Idle past 1497 days)
    Posts: 19762
    From: Silver Spring, MD
    Joined: 03-20-2003


    Message 158 of 303 (319366)
    06-08-2006 10:42 PM
    Reply to: Message 156 by Isaac
    06-08-2006 10:30 PM


    Re: No, not a fact....
    If it could be observed and tested then it would no longer be supernatural.
    To agree with you by restating your comments - if it could be observed and tested, or even just observed, it never was supernatural.

    This message is a reply to:
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    randman 
    Suspended Member (Idle past 4929 days)
    Posts: 6367
    Joined: 05-26-2005


    Message 159 of 303 (319563)
    06-09-2006 1:59 PM
    Reply to: Message 152 by randman
    06-07-2006 12:40 AM


    Re: No, not a fact....
    I don't really see how scientific perspective can confirm that something we have no evidence for happened myself. There are alternative explanations, such as life came here from another planet to life embedded prior to the beginning of the universe (but not biological life).
    You can dismiss those as lacking evidence for, but no more so abiogenesis which is a form of spontaneous generation.

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    Isaac
    Inactive Member


    Message 160 of 303 (319672)
    06-09-2006 7:42 PM
    Reply to: Message 158 by crashfrog
    06-08-2006 10:42 PM


    Re: No, not a fact....
    I don't really see how scientific perspective can confirm that something we have no evidence for happened myself. There are alternative explanations, such as life came here from another planet to life embedded prior to the beginning of the universe (but not biological life). You can dismiss those as lacking evidence for, but no more so abiogenesis which is a form of spontaneous generation.
    You misunderstand. Science doesn't confirm abiogenesis to have occured (I probably wasn't too clear with my wording), it just can't entertain any notions of a supernatural entity having a hand in the origin of life. Its patently unscientific. Its reserved for other spheres of philospohy. The point about extraterrestrial origin is a good one, in which case science will probably never reach an adequate conclusion. Its quite possible that life arose naturally in another part of the galaxy where conditions were quite alien to that of any period on earth.
    Edited by Isana Kadeb, : No reason given.

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    ringo
    Member (Idle past 442 days)
    Posts: 20940
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005


    Message 161 of 303 (319681)
    06-09-2006 7:55 PM
    Reply to: Message 158 by crashfrog
    06-08-2006 10:42 PM


    Huh?
    randman writes:
    There are alternative explanations, such as life came here from another planet to life embedded prior to the beginning of the universe (but not biological life).
    What does "not biological life" mean?

    Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
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    randman 
    Suspended Member (Idle past 4929 days)
    Posts: 6367
    Joined: 05-26-2005


    Message 162 of 303 (319685)
    06-09-2006 8:04 PM
    Reply to: Message 160 by Isaac
    06-09-2006 7:42 PM


    Re: Huh?
    It means if we are speculating on WAGs (wild-assed guesses) such as abiogenesis that have never been observed, there are all sorts of possibilities. In no way is abiogenesis "the only way it could have happened." Truth be told, we just don't know.
    1. Life could have come here from somewhere else.
    2. Life could have existed in some other form and evolved into or somehow changed into life in biological form.
    Edited by randman, : No reason given.

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    randman 
    Suspended Member (Idle past 4929 days)
    Posts: 6367
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    Message 163 of 303 (319689)
    06-09-2006 8:10 PM
    Reply to: Message 159 by randman
    06-09-2006 1:59 PM


    Re: No, not a fact....
    Please define "supernatural entity". Imo, your statement is well-nigh absurd. If an intelligent entity, whether God, angels, aliens, human beings or anything at all acted within the universe, it is not "supernatural" or not exclusively supernatural and so can be considered within the domain of scientific investigation.
    The whole let's exclude anything "supernatural" presupposes a good understanding of what is "natural."
    So what is natural?
    Is artificial selection and gene splicing "natural" for example?
    Is material or physical what is meant by "natural" and if so, is a particle "natural" when it exists in an undefined state as a quantum potential?
    Does "natural" in opposition to "supernatural" just mean "real", and if that is the case and if God is real, then why are insist that it is wrong to consider anything that God could do?
    In fact, who says we cannot test for something God has done? Maybe we can figure out how God did something and do it ourselves and demonstrate how God did it and verify the whole idea.
    Edited by randman, : No reason given.

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    ringo
    Member (Idle past 442 days)
    Posts: 20940
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005


    Message 164 of 303 (319691)
    06-09-2006 8:12 PM
    Reply to: Message 161 by ringo
    06-09-2006 7:55 PM


    Re: Huh?
    randman writes:
    In no way is abiogenesis "the only way it could have happened."
    I didn't say it was. I asked: What does "not biological life" mean?
    (I was under the impression that all life is biological.)

    Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
    Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

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    randman 
    Suspended Member (Idle past 4929 days)
    Posts: 6367
    Joined: 05-26-2005


    Message 165 of 303 (319694)
    06-09-2006 8:14 PM
    Reply to: Message 163 by randman
    06-09-2006 8:10 PM


    Re: Huh?
    ringo, all life as we know it is biological, but if we are going to speculate, it could be life exists that is not biological.
    We don't know, but it's certainly a possibility, just as abiogenesis is. In fact, for all we know, life in some form predates the Big Bang.
    Edited by randman, : No reason given.

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