Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9164 total)
6 online now:
Newest Member: ChatGPT
Post Volume: Total: 916,909 Year: 4,166/9,624 Month: 1,037/974 Week: 364/286 Day: 7/13 Hour: 0/2


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   The Gap Theory (Fossils Young / Earth Old) genesis 1:3/ 1:1
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17828
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 16 of 28 (103684)
04-29-2004 8:25 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by rickrose
04-29-2004 8:16 AM


Re:
Does it matter ? If the point is to determine what the author of Genesis understood of the nature and origins of our universe we can't simply assume that if we knew something then he knew it. We have to take the text as it is rather than reading our knowledge into it.
[This message has been edited by PaulK, 04-29-2004]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by rickrose, posted 04-29-2004 8:16 AM rickrose has not replied

  
rickrose
Inactive Member


Message 17 of 28 (103685)
04-29-2004 8:26 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by PaulK
04-29-2004 3:50 AM


Re:
Knowing no other substantial light source (wasn't a firefly), I'll stick to solar bodies. By the way, Gen doesn't say a lot of things. It's a well written, and terse account. It is not a book of science, but does agree with the scientific progression of earth's development.
The science of mathematical probability offers striking proof that the Genesis creation
account must have come from a source with knowledge of the events. The account lists 10
major stages in this order: (1) a beginning; (2) a primitive earth in darkness and enshrouded in
heavy gases and water; (3) light; (4) an expanse or atmosphere; (5) large areas of dry land; (6)
land plants; (7) sun, moon and stars discernible in the expanse, and seasons beginning; (8) sea
monsters and flying creatures; (9) wild and tame beasts, mammals; (10) man. Science agrees
that these stages occurred in this general order. What are the chances that the writer of Genesis
just guessed this order? The same as if you picked at random the numbers 1 to 10 from a box,
and drew them in consecutive order. The chances of doing this on your first try are 1 in
3,628,800! So, to say the writer just happened to list the foregoing events in the right order
without getting the facts from somewhere is not realistic.
Above from earlier post
Nice chat, rickrose

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by PaulK, posted 04-29-2004 3:50 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by PaulK, posted 04-29-2004 8:29 AM rickrose has not replied
 Message 19 by jar, posted 04-29-2004 9:51 AM rickrose has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17828
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 18 of 28 (103686)
04-29-2004 8:29 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by rickrose
04-29-2004 8:26 AM


Re:
In other words Genesis couldn't mean what it seems to say - because if it did it would be wrong. Not much of an argumnet.
And I see that you agree with the idea that the author of Genesis was too stupid to figure out the the beginning had to come first without help.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by rickrose, posted 04-29-2004 8:26 AM rickrose has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 19 of 28 (103693)
04-29-2004 9:51 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by rickrose
04-29-2004 8:26 AM


Re:
Not really Rick.
If you look at any of the Creation stories, not just Genesis, you will find some similar ordering.
The fact is, the ordering in Genesis is simply wrong. It is simply an Earth Centric viewpoint. For example, Light would have been there long before the Earth even existed, even before the Solar System exited.
The odds are that the writer of Genesis and each of the other Creation Myths did guess at the order. You have to remember that the writers (probably more likely chanter, singer or reciter) of these myths were very intellegent people. Primative man was not dumb. The may not have accumulated as many facts as are available today, but they were not dumb. So they were not working from random chance. They were making observations and coming up with the best theories possible to explain the facts, the observations, that they made.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by rickrose, posted 04-29-2004 8:26 AM rickrose has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by rickrose, posted 04-29-2004 1:06 PM jar has replied
 Message 21 by rickrose, posted 04-29-2004 1:17 PM jar has not replied

  
rickrose
Inactive Member


Message 20 of 28 (103753)
04-29-2004 1:06 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by jar
04-29-2004 9:51 AM


Re:
Appreciate your thought, but some scientist feel differently.
If I as a geologist were called upon to explain briefly our modern ideas of the origin of the earth and the development of life on it to a simple, pastoral people, such as the tribes to whom the Book of Genesis was addressed, I could hardly do better than follow rather closely much of the language of the first chapter of Genesis. This geologist, Wallace Pratt, also noted that the order of eventsfrom the origin of the oceans, to the emergence of land, to the appearance of marine life, and then to birds and mammalsis essentially the sequence of the principal divisions of geologic time.
As to 'other myths' they differ substantially.
Many find it hard to accept this creation account. They contend that it is drawn from the creation myths of ancient peoples, primarily those from ancient Babylon. However, as one recent Bible dictionary noted: No myth has yet been found which explicitly refers to the creation of the universe and the myths are marked by polytheism and the struggles of deities for supremacy in marked contrast to the Heb[rew] monotheism of [Genesis] 1-2. Regarding Babylonian creation
legends, the trustees of the British Museum stated: The fundamental conceptions of the Babylonian and Hebrew accounts are essentially different. -- from previous post.
And you are correct when you say that gen is an earth centric viewpoint. That's what the account is about. The only real reference to universal matter, including early earth when it was a liquid waste is gen 1:1. And vre 2a
There are other parts of the bible that deal, not with the creation of the universe, but with spacific knowledge of the universe that ancients didn't possess.
This part is still earth.
Job 38
4 Where did you happen to be when I founded the earth?
Tell [me], if you do know understanding.
5 Who set its measurements, in case you know,
Or who stretched out upon it the measuring line?
6 Into what have its socket pedestals been sunk down,
Or who laid its cornerston -- end quote
Socket pedestals. While ocean crust is rather thin, mountain areas have 'roots' that go down more than five miles below surface, sockit pedistals sunk down.
Light:
19 Where, now, is the way to where light resides?
As for darkness, where, now, is its place,
20 That you should take it to its boundary
And that you should understand the roadways to its house?
21 Have you come to know because at that time you were being born,
And [because] in number your days are many?
24 Where, now, is the way by which the light distributes itself,
The writing of Job is credited to moses. Job lived just prior to moses. Job was not a hebrew, but a worshiper of the same God, Jehovah. What other religious account can you find from antiquity, bp35oo, that adresses the origen, pathways, constitution of light?
Scientists are still wrestling with these issues that Job started.
31Can you tie fast the bonds of the Kimah constellation,
Or can you loosen the very cords of the Kesil constellation?
32 Can you bring forth the Mazzaroth constellation in its appointed time?
And as for the Ash constellation alongside its sons, can you conduct them?
33 Have you come to know the statutes of the heavens,
What ancient people knew that the universe was bound by unseen forces?
Even till just a handfull of centuries past, science was shrouded with celestial folklore that makes Job's words ring of high science. Please show me some ancient religious document that mentions the bonds of stellar matter. And were in writings of that time will you find reference to the statutes of the heavens? Some one told Job that the heavens had statutes, laws, governing principles 3700bp. Moses merely compiled it 3500 BP. Again the Bible is not about science. It's about God and man. But where it touches science at such remote times, how can you explain them having such knowledge.
There are many other points, but this just took me about 45 minutes. It's enough for now.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by jar, posted 04-29-2004 9:51 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by jar, posted 04-29-2004 2:10 PM rickrose has replied
 Message 23 by JonF, posted 04-29-2004 3:54 PM rickrose has replied

  
rickrose
Inactive Member


Message 21 of 28 (103760)
04-29-2004 1:17 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by jar
04-29-2004 9:51 AM


Re:
Missed your query about light. Please see earlier discussion. Your point was already acknowledged.
Light is covered in Gen 1:1 where it says: 'In the begining God created the heavens and the earth. This is pre six earth centric Genisis 'days.' Please see earlier discussions and reference the thread we moved from. I don't know how to put the reference in for you because I'm new at internet.
[This message has been edited by rickrose, 04-29-2004]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by jar, posted 04-29-2004 9:51 AM jar has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 22 of 28 (103779)
04-29-2004 2:10 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by rickrose
04-29-2004 1:06 PM


Re:
Rick
I think that you may be missunderstanding what I am saying. That's not unusual, I'm old and often have trouble expressing myself.
I am not in anyway saying that the description in Genesis is not well written. With liberties, it can be expanded to show a resonable, although not one for one, correspondence with what the Evolution record shows. But to do so you do have to be pretty liberal with your interpretations and fudge things slightly.
But that is not my point. My point is that even if there was a far closer correspondence between Genesis and the Universe we see about us, that does not prove that it is divinley inspired or written.
Genesis was written very recently. It is one of the more recent Creation Myths. The people alive at that time were certainly as intellegent as we are today, perhaps more so. They had the advantage of knowning quite a few of the other earlier creation stories and so I am sure, had debated the strong points and weak points of each of them.
If you look at what Wallace Pratt said, you'll find that we all agree with his statement. Genesis is a pretty good explaination for a simple, pastoral people. No one argues that.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by rickrose, posted 04-29-2004 1:06 PM rickrose has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by rickrose, posted 04-29-2004 6:08 PM jar has replied

  
JonF
Member (Idle past 198 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 23 of 28 (103810)
04-29-2004 3:54 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by rickrose
04-29-2004 1:06 PM


Re:
This geologist, Wallace Pratt, also noted that the order of eventsfrom the origin of the oceans, to the emergence of land, to the appearance of marine life, and then to birds and mammalsis essentially the sequence of the principal divisions of geologic time.
This geologist, Wallace Pratt, was also a fundamentalist creationist who believed that the book of Genesis was literal in the sense than modern "creation scientists" do. IOW, he had abandoned the scientific method in this area. (Interestingly, he was famous for his ability fo find oil fields, using principles that are in conflict to YEC).
The quote is from 1928. Somewhat interesting as history, but not relevant to modern geology.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by rickrose, posted 04-29-2004 1:06 PM rickrose has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by rickrose, posted 04-29-2004 5:45 PM JonF has replied

  
rickrose
Inactive Member


Message 24 of 28 (103862)
04-29-2004 5:45 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by JonF
04-29-2004 3:54 PM


Re:
Regardless of Pratt's theology, what about arguments presented in previous post. Do you fine anything positive about the content?
rickrose

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by JonF, posted 04-29-2004 3:54 PM JonF has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by JonF, posted 04-29-2004 6:28 PM rickrose has not replied

  
rickrose
Inactive Member


Message 25 of 28 (103873)
04-29-2004 6:08 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by jar
04-29-2004 2:10 PM


Re:
Ok, got your drift. Not necessary to agree on everything. If you don't mind, I don't believe in evolution per say. I obviously have much to learn. We all do. As I'm reading on many sites about things like dendrochronology, paleoclimatology, lake sediments from Japan, cave paintings in france (which I want to take some time studying), I'm feeling slightly confused. Scientists seem so sure of thier overall assertion. I feel so sure about my belief structure that I've held for 32 yrs. This will be a long hard search. I'm just starting because I never used the internet other than to email friends. One thing I feel is that theological arguments are fruitless as are arguments in general. In any discussion each party has to look at the other person's argumentive weaknesses and strengths as you have just accorded me. Just to finish this windy speach, I believe the bible's account. I believe it is from God. As you see I have a much different interpretation than most Christian people. I don't much like talking to them about the bible because most are so dogmatic. I see really the only difficult issue I will run into. The age of man. Evolution (even though I'm not with it is simply a different approach to the fossil record. I don't think I'm that concerned with it. I'll spend some time learning many things before I try to take a hard look at the age of man. There's lots out there to learn, and I've got a slim science foundation.
rickrose
In Quest of Knowledge and Truth

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by jar, posted 04-29-2004 2:10 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by jar, posted 04-29-2004 6:32 PM rickrose has replied

  
JonF
Member (Idle past 198 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 26 of 28 (103882)
04-29-2004 6:28 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by rickrose
04-29-2004 5:45 PM


Re:
Regardless of Pratt's theology, what about arguments presented in previous post. Do you fine anything positive about the content?
As I wrote, somewhat interesting as history, but not relevant to modern day geology. A lot our knowledge has changed since then.
The Genesis account isn't very close to the order of geological succession or the development of life as we understand them.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by rickrose, posted 04-29-2004 5:45 PM rickrose has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 27 of 28 (103888)
04-29-2004 6:32 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by rickrose
04-29-2004 6:08 PM


Re:
No problem You'll find that there are many Christians here that happen to think that Evolution best explains what we see.
And don't worry. One thing that none of us will do is ask you to believe anything. Science is not about believing some theory. That just doesn't enter into it.
Let me give you an example.
Aerodynamic lift happens because there is a pressure difference between the air under the wing and the air flowing over the wing. Now I might believe that the best shape for a wing is the wheel of a chariot. In fact, if I look in the Bible I can find that chariots do in fact fly.
The scientific approach says, "Okay, let's try that and see if it works".
Now no matter how much I believe that the best form is a chariot wheel, that sucker ain't gonna fly.
Evolution is like that. Science doesn't really care what one person believes. Instead, they look at the evidence. If things fit, if they make sense, if they are repeatable, if they can be used to make predictions that are later proved, and most importantly, if there are things that would Disprove a theory if they were observed, then the theory is used as long as it explains what is seen. If it cannot explain something, if it is shown to be false, then it is modified or discarded.
Now as to the age of man. Tonight, look up at the stars. Are they really there?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by rickrose, posted 04-29-2004 6:08 PM rickrose has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by rickrose, posted 04-29-2004 7:49 PM jar has not replied

  
rickrose
Inactive Member


Message 28 of 28 (103926)
04-29-2004 7:49 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by jar
04-29-2004 6:32 PM


Re:
Thanks for reply. Good points. Never been in a chariot, but owned several horses. When I ride all out feel like I'm flying.
rickrose

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by jar, posted 04-29-2004 6:32 PM jar has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024