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Author Topic:   Relative Motion (A Thought Experiment)
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Suspended Member (Idle past 7216 days)
Posts: 423
Joined: 07-23-2003


Message 3 of 86 (127038)
07-23-2004 3:45 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Tony650
07-23-2004 12:59 PM


Tony650 writes:
Now the question is...Can the Earth move? I don't mean can it be moved...I mean, can the Earth, in any sense of the word, be said to be "moving"?
At first I'd say no. All motion is relative, and if there is nothing to relate the earth to, then it can't be said to be moving.
HOWEVER (there's always a 'however,' isn't there? ) it's not clear that there really is such a thing as a "single thing" in reality. Even elementary particles don't have well-defined existences in space-time. They're more like little "blurs" of probabilities which interfere with eachother and in that sense can be said to have relation or relativity. In actuality they are described as waves, and the peaks and valleys of a wave move in relation to eachother.
Let's say that the one object is now a spaceship and I fire the engines. Am I moving?
Yes. The act of firing the engines actually propels billions of little particles AWAY from you out of your engines, and you are therefore moving relative to them.
Let's say that our hypothetical universe now has two objects; a planet and its moon, in synchronous orbit. There is no "third-person perspective" where one can see the two bodies orbiting each other. The only observers are on the bodies themselves. As far as any of them can tell, there are two bodies in the universe, which sit, motionless, at a fixed distance from each other.
I think this is really a trick question. If the earth is spinning and the orbit of the moon is in perfect sync with rotation of the earth so that the moon sits in one place over the earth the whole time, the fact still remains that the moon is circling the earth even though it doesn't look like it from the earth or the moon. That's enough to maintain an orbit like it has presently.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Tony650, posted 07-23-2004 12:59 PM Tony650 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by Tony650, posted 07-24-2004 11:57 AM :æ: has replied

  
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Suspended Member (Idle past 7216 days)
Posts: 423
Joined: 07-23-2003


Message 19 of 86 (127332)
07-24-2004 3:53 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Tony650
07-24-2004 11:57 AM


Tony650 writes:
I truly didn't intend it to be a trick question.
I know you didn't, and forgive me if you feel accused.
The problem that I'm having is not simply that the Earth and moon don't appear to be orbiting each other, from either's perspective. What I'm having trouble understanding is how the concept of them orbiting each other has any meaning if there is nothing for them to be orbiting relative to.
To inhabitants on the earth, it would have no meaning. To them, it wouldn't appear that there is any orbiting at all, and more or less all motion *IS* is a matter of appearances.
I guess what I'm trying to get clear in my mind is what motion actually is.
I think it's best regarded as an abstraction. It's the continuum of associations that we make in our minds between our memories of the past and our observations and the present.
If all motion is relative then how can the tidally locked bodies in our hypothetical universe "move" around each other?
If we didn't know that they were orbiting (which, since you stated the they were, is what made your question tricky ) there would be no way to discern that they were moving absent some additional point of reference moving non-uniformly to the earth-moon system.
Since they are the only points of reference that exist, and neither of them moves relative to the other, can the concept of them orbiting each other have any meaning?
I'd say no.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Tony650, posted 07-24-2004 11:57 AM Tony650 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Brad McFall, posted 07-24-2004 3:57 PM :æ: has not replied
 Message 42 by Tony650, posted 07-26-2004 2:07 PM :æ: has not replied

  
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