A few questions for Intelligent Design

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Originally posted by Gerhard:

Intelligent Design holds that there is something transcendental, and yes omnipotent, and that its intelligence, its omniscience, is the primary cause. And also, that this Designer will leave evidences of how he thoughtfully constructed and planned the nature he created.

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What traces would you expect to find of the 'hand' of the designer ?

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Originally posted by Gerhard:

Here is where the methodology comes in.
Here Intelligent Design seeks for evidence that will prove that some phenomenon or another is an impossibiliy without some kind of omniscient originator.

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I do not believe it is possible to provide evidence of the above,
could you provide an example of the type of thing you mean ?
A for instance/if type example rather than an actual evidence.

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Originally posted by Gerhard:

The very fact that it is extremely difficult to concieve an undesigned universe, I think, says alot about whether our universe is designed or not.

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It actually says nothing about the nature of the universe, only
of your ability to understand it (see below).

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Originally posted by Gerhard:

For it is also difficult, perhaps impossible, for us to percieve infinity or eternity because we are such finite beings.

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You say it yourself ... humans have a finite capacity for
understanding. So saying 'I cannot concieve of an undesigned
universe.' is largely pointless.

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Originally posted by Gerhard:

Actually, this also shows that a designed universe cannot look like just anything.

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Why when the deigner is omnipotent ?

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Originally posted by Gerhard:

Whatever it does happen to look like, even if it is something we ourselves have never seen, a designed universe must in some way portray order, logic, and sense of planning.

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Again, why ? If an omnipotent designer remains in contact with
his creation he could, should he choose to do so, change the
rules mid-stream.If such an omnipotent exists we should expect chaos rather than
order ... or at least see chaotic elements.Besides, the Bible prooves that God is NOT omnipotent, if he
were he could have snapped mankind out of existence without the
need for a Great Flood.

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Originally posted by Gerhard:

We do not assume that a tornado designed the wreakage left laying everywhere of houses and whatnot because there is obviously no rhyme nor reason to how it is done. We could probably attempt to map out where different types of debris lay but I doubt the map would be completed successfully.

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True ... but given sufficient knowledge of the operation of tornadoes
(which we don't have yet) and of the structures and forces invovled
we could model the devastation accurately ... because it is a natural
process subject to physical constraints.

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Originally posted by Gerhard:

As far as the rest of your questions about being able to perceive what a nondesigned universe is like I have no idea how anyone could comprehend that. That's really like asking a general relativist what life feels like when you can sense all five dimensions.
He has no idea.
No one does.

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Soif you cannot imagine what a non-designed univers would be like,
how do you know you are not in one ?

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[This message has been edited by Peter, 05-16-2002]

But in the Bible God only operates within the governing
rules of his creation ... there is nowhere in the Bible
(with the possible exception of the creation itself) that
this is not the case.This suggests that either ::God is not omnipotent.ORThe Bible was written by men, and those men were incapable
of thinking outside of the natural realm that they knew.ORThe events in the bible were based upon some handed down
recolection of natural events, which had divine intervention
superimposed upon them for narrative/religous/political effect.

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Originally posted by w_fortenberry:
Please allow me to mention just a few.

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The destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah in Genesis 19

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God sends angels to rain fire and brimstone, when he could
just as easily have blinked the cities out of existence had
he chosen.Within the rules of his own creation == he utilised known
destructive capability (albeit at an unprecedented level).Not to go all chariots of the Gods here, but the description
is just as consistent with a modern military air-strike, from
the point of view of someone who has never seen one and doesn't
have the language to adequately express it.

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Originally posted by w_fortenberry:

The increase of Jacobs flock in Genesis 30-31

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Originally posted by w_fortenberry:

The burning bush in Exodus 3

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Exaggeration by Moses to impress the masses ?Bush soaked in a combustible material, like oil ?Natural resins in the wood burining ?Chariot of God's style electric light!! More mundane electric light, since simple batteries have
been found in ancient cultures (not everyone believes that's
what they are mind).Describe a really bright light on a stand without using any
modern terminology ...

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Originally posted by w_fortenberry:

The signs of Aaaron and Moses and the Plagues of Egypt in Exodus 4-12

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Lot's of suggestions exist for the plagues in more mundane terms,
and who wrote it down ? Oh, yeah, Moses wasn't it ? He didn't
have anything to provve to his people, I mean it's not like
he had to try to stamp out the idolatry or anything.

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Originally posted by w_fortenberry:

The crossing of the Red Sea in Exodus 14

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There have been suggestions about odd tides etc. Not necessairly
Cecil B.'s version of the parting.

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Originally posted by w_fortenberry:

Water from the rock in Exodus 17 and 20

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Natural springs ? Water from nowhere would be against the
rules of His creation.

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Originally posted by w_fortenberry:

The brazen serpent in Numbers 21

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Originally posted by w_fortenberry:

Aaron's rod that budded in Numbers 17

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Originally posted by w_fortenberry:

The Jordan divided in Joshua 3

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Originally posted by w_fortenberry:

The walls of Jericho in Joshua 6

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What was the Arc of the Covenant ... and why did it have to be
carried around the walls ... that's the Chariots of the Gods
way Maybe all that noise and curfuffle was a distraction from the
miners ... and omitted from the text for religous/political
purposes.

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Originally posted by w_fortenberry:

The sun stands still in Joshua 10

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Originally posted by w_fortenberry:

The withered hand of Jeroboam in I Kings 13

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Originally posted by w_fortenberry:

The meal and oil multiplied in I Kings 17

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Originally posted by w_fortenberry:

The sacrifice consumed by fire in I Kings 18

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Originally posted by w_fortenberry:

Armies destroyed by fire in II Kings 1

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Fire is a natural/within laws thing ... God could have blinked
them out of existence ... would have had a greater impact
too.

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Originally posted by w_fortenberry:

The Jordan divided in II Kings 2

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Originally posted by w_fortenberry:

Water supplied in II Kings 3
("And this is but a light thing in the sight of the LORD")

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Originally posted by w_fortenberry:

Widows oil multiplied in II Kings 4

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Originally posted by w_fortenberry:

Loaves multiplied in II Kings 4

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Originally posted by w_fortenberry:

The floating axe head in II Kings 6

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Originally posted by w_fortenberry:

The Syrians defeated in II Kings 6

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Originally posted by w_fortenberry:

The reversal of the Sun's motion in II Kings 20 and Isaiah 38

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Originally posted by w_fortenberry:

The water changed to wine in John 2

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Maybe Jesus simply suggested watering it down as was common
in Rome, based upon his, perhaps, wider appreciation of
other cultures.

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Originally posted by w_fortenberry:

The withered hand made whole in Luke 6

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Originally posted by w_fortenberry:

The stilling of the storm in Mark 4

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So a storm stopped suddenly ... that's clearly divine and
not within the rules of His creation!!

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Originally posted by w_fortenberry:

Feeding the five thousand in Matthew 14
Feeding the four thousand in Matthew 15

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Drops into the exaggerated category. Maybe Jesus invented
sandwiches

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Originally posted by w_fortenberry:

Walking on the water in Matthew 14

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What's the ancient Hebrew word for 'swimming' ? Just a
thought

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Originally posted by w_fortenberry:

The cleansing of the lepers in Luke 17
The ressurection of Lazarus in John 11
The healing of Malchus in Luke 22
The resurrection of Christ in Luke 24
The Lame man healed in Acts 3
The healing of Aeneas in Acts 9
The resurrection of Tabitha in Acts 9
The resurrection of Eutychus in Acts 20

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Any healing/ressurection issues can be equally interpreted as
misunderstood/exaggerated. Much modern medicine would be
construed as miraculous in primitive cultures, and we
know next to nothing about Jesus's upbringing or education.I was going through the whole lot ... but it seems pointless.God does nothing that cannot be explained by natural means, albeit
at a level unprecedented in the supposed time of the Bible.He doesn't make the walls of Jericho dissappear, nor Sodom
and Gomorrah.That's what I was getting at ... I hope some of my flippancy
hasn't offended anyone ... I'll try to restrain myself in
future.

It concerns the omnipotence of the IDer.In that sense I feel it relevent to this discussion.Does the IDer need to be omnipotent ... and is there evidence
that the christian God is omnipotent ?I have suggested that the bible cannot be used in this
context except to support a non-omnipotent God in the Bible.Hmm .... maybe that's not relevent here after all ....

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Originally posted by w_fortenberry:
I must have misunderstood the criteria. My apologies.

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Nevertheless, some of the events mentioned can not possibly be explained by natural means.

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The water changed to wine in John 2
- Your suggestion of watered down wine is not consistent with the passage
Walking on the water in Matthew 14
-Matthew was written in Greek not Hebrew. The word used is peripateo and has no connotation of swimming.

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On a side note, three of your responses in particular reveal a lack of familiarity with the Bible. I have found that even when debating against a work it is best to be as familiar with that work as possible. ... After all, is not knowledge half the battle?

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I must confess I haven't read the bible of a regular basis for
many years ... so you are right to suggest I'm rusty.I'll have a check before I make any particular responses, but would
be interested in the three particular lacks of familiarity.With regard the 'walking on water', I know that Mathew was written
in Greek, but that's not what's relevent. The story was handed
by word of mouth for sometime first, and was originally told in
(I guess admittedly) either Hebrew or some form of arabic. Hence
my question. What I was really asking is, even amongst fishermen,
was swimming known and was there a word in the language to
express swimming at that time ?Again, with watering of wine, the idea may not be consistent with
the passage ... that's the crux of my argument ... that passages
in the bible express to the best of the ability of the chronicler
(original not necessarily the one who wrote it down) the events.
Those events, if mis-understood would be mis-recorded.I'll look up the other verses though, and see if they satisfy
my 'within the rules' argument ... the sun stopping one could
be a clincher there [Added by edit:: couldn't peripateo just mean 'go' also ?]

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[This message has been edited by Peter, 07-09-2002]

[b] [QUOTE] The first was your question regarding the Arc of the Covenant, the second your comment about the watered
down wine, the third your question regarding the language in Matthew. There is also your silence on several of the topics.
[/b][/QUOTE]I thought the ark mentioned in Joshua 6:4 was the ark of
the covenant, carried by the isrealites.'And seven priests shall bear before the ark seven trumpets of rams' horns: and the seventh day ye shall compass the city seven times, and the priests shall blow with the trumpets.'Seem to have read about that somewhere, years ago.As far as good tasting watered wine is concerned ... the romans
commonly drank watered wine so I don't see the relevence. Perhaps
you would be suprised by the taste should you try it, and
possibly even remark upon it.I always thought that the authors of the gospels were not the
disciples themselves. I think that was mentioned during religous
study classes in school ... might be wrong ... some else could
perhaps comment on that.As for omissions ... I didn't want to bog down the board with
an explanation for every single one, but I realise I'm going to
have to go through the others now As for swimming ... you have perhaps answered a question I have
wondered on for a long time. I know that in many ancient
cultures, even those that were fishermen, swimming was not well
known and hardly practiced. My suggestion of this was that the
witnesses were unaware of the art fo swimming, or of a word for
it (perhaps it was not in common usage) and so had no alternative
but to be descriptive using other language.I looked up 'peripateo' and there was a suggestion that it could
also mean 'to live'.So perhaps the suprise was not about 'walking on the water' but 'living on the water' rather than drowning