The A-Bombs

Mr Hambre,I think the bombs should have been dropped. It's the where & how that is the issue for me. It was possible even then to drop the bomb from such an altitude over Tokyo that the blast would have rattled windows & little more. People survived mere hundreds of meters away from the epicentre (if that's the correct terminology) provided they were shielded from the flash & blast. The radioactive fallout, as I understand it, wasn't a great factor in the death toll. It could even have been possible to arrange a demonstration somewhere uninhabited. That, of course, required Japanese cooperation.We shouldn't lose sight of the fact that the militants staged a nearly successful coup in order to continue the war after the bombs had been dropped, & also the fact it took TWO bombs dropped on cities before the Japanese surrendered.Hindsight is 20/20, nevertheless, I think there could have been just as effective displays of power without the attendant loss of life.Mark

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There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't

MrHambre, You misunderstand my point, which was that the bombs should have been dropped in a display of power, just not on cities. And in fact the Emperors power was on very shaky ground at the end, the hawks openly defied the Emperors command for a short period, but were talked around in the end.So I ultimately agree the Emperors command was key, it would have taken the civil administration much longer to come to a majority decision, if they ever would, but it's just not as simple as that. Hirohito was expected to, & was indeed brought up to, "reign, not rule". Hence his reluctance to get involved in the politics of his country. It's worth remembering that Hirohito was against the decision to go to war in the first place, & could have avoided it in a sentence. As such, any event like dropping the bombs would always involve a flurry of activity by the hawks & doves that would take time to occur. Hirohito would not act without hearing out both camps. But ultimately the bombs did cause Hirohito to issue his "bear the unbearable" speech, & therefore the bombs were instrumental in the capitulation of Japan.In my view it could have been achieved with far less loss of life.Mark

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There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't

Hi MrHambre, And that is the date the meeting was convened where (I believe the meeting went on into the 10th) Hirohito accepted Togo's view that the Potsdam Declaration be accepted, with the proviso that kokutai (Japanese national essence) could be maintained. The meeting was convened the same day as the second bomb was dropped.I maintain that it was the A-bombs that provided the jolt necessary that would lead to to the surrender. The point is that the offer of surrender was agreed immediately after the second bomb fell.Mark

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There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't

MrHambre, No, it is demonstrably true.Hirohito's words on the meeting that convened 9th August: "I have given serious thought to the situation prevailing at home & abroad & have concluded that continuing the war means destruction for the nation & a prolongation of bloodshed & cruelty in the world. I cannot bear to see my innocent people suffer any longer. Ending the war is the only way to restore world peace & to relieve the nation from the terrible distress with which it is burdened.It pains me, to think of those who served so faithfully, the soldiers & sailors who have been killed or wounded in far-off battles, the families who have lost all their worldly goods - & often their lives as well - in the air raids at home. It goes without saying that it is unbearable for me to see the brave & loyal fighting men of Japan disarmed. It is equally unbearable that others who have rendered me devoted service should now be punished as instigators of the war.Nevertheless, the time has come when we must bear the unbearable. When I recall the feelings of my Imperial Grandsire, the Emperor Meiji, at the time of the triple Intervention, I swallow my own tears & give my sanction to the proposal to accept the Allied proclamation on the basis outlined by the Foreign Minister."Suzuki - "His Majesties decision should now be made the unanimous decision of the conference."The entire cabinet signed. (The Rising Sun - Decline & Fall of the Japanese Empire 1936-1945 by John Toland, Chapter 35 pp810-813)Thus the Potsdam Proclamation was accepted by Hirohito & his entire cabinet with the proviso (of Togo's design, not Hirohito's) that the Emperor be retained, at a meeting convened on August 9th 1945, the day Nagasaki was bombed, ending in the early hours of 10th August.Hirohito expressed the need for surrender to his cabinet on the same day Nagasaki was bombed (or at the very least the meeting began that day). The terms agreed by the cabinet were the actual terms that they got. The weakness of my argument is that the Soviet's invaded Manchuria around about then, as well, which by all accounts seemed to have rattled the Japanese leadership somewhat.MarkThis message has been edited by mark24, 08-03-2004 10:15 AM

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There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't

MrHambre, Then we agree.Mark

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There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't