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Author | Topic: The Bible: Literal or Figurative | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Amlodhi Inactive Member |
quote: Has this thread strayed from the intent of the OP already? I hope Mission for Truth will correct me if I am wrong, but it seems to me that the question being asked is: If the bible is taken figuratively instead of literally, how does this effect modern Christian doctrine? For instance: If the Adam and Eve story is figurative, then (regardless of any argument that it "still contains God's truth"), the doctrine of original sin is immediately called into question. Obvious parables and certain other stories in the bible can certainly be taken in a figurative sense. However, if the tenets of Christian doctrine are to be taken seriously and literally, huge portions of the biblical text must be taken to be literal as well. Just my 2 cents, Amlodhi
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jar Member (Idle past 425 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
For instance: If the Adam and Eve story is figurative, then (regardless of any argument that it "still contains God's truth"), the doctrine of original sin is immediately called into question. I don't know of any Christian Dogma, including Roman Catholicism that holds Original Sin as a condition of faith. There is nothing that I know of in Christian Dogma that requires ANY of the Bible to be taken literally other than the existance of GOD and the life and mission of Jesus. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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paisano Member (Idle past 6453 days) Posts: 459 From: USA Joined: |
For instance: If the Adam and Eve story is figurative, then (regardless of any argument that it "still contains God's truth"), the doctrine of original sin is immediately called into question. Depends on what precisely is meant by "original sin". In Catholic theology, original sin refers to a loss of sanctifying grace that humans experienced at some point, nothing more than that. It certainly does NOT have anything to do with physical death. That is a Protestant notion. I think that notion is one of the chief reasons Protestants of literalist bent have such a problem with evolution, whereas Catholicism does not really see it as problematic.
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almeyda Inactive Member |
If there wasnt a literal fall, in a literal place, by a literal man. Then what fall are we talking about? Jesus shouldnt even have a reason to save mankind. Sin is the reason why we see death, bloodshed, disease and a cursed world. Before this, God made a perfect world. Gods plan is to save mankind from the judgement on sin through Christ. Now Jar you tell me if this isnt an important aspect of the faith?
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jar Member (Idle past 425 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Now Jar you tell me if this isnt an important aspect of the faith? Nope. It most certainly is not very important at all. That is why almost every Christian sect, except for the few Fundamentalist and Literalist cults, have dropped the concept of Original Sin. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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Amlodhi Inactive Member |
quote: Hi jar, Most interesting. I think this is pointing in the right direction now. A few questions come immediately to mind then, for example: "Then why did Jesus need to be born of a virgin?" Could be an interesting discussion. But not one for my sleep deprived mind. Later, Amlodhi
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Loudmouth Inactive Member |
quote: Jesus said that "For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God." Nowhere does this require a literal place, event, or human. The fact is that we all sin and therefore need saving.
quote: Or it may have always been that way. Do you have evidence of what the world looked like before the "curse"? Bloodshed is a common occurence throughout the animal world, such as carnivores catching prey. Disease can be found in every creature, human and non-human. A "cursed world" explains nothing, since we do not have a non-cursed world to compare it to.
quote: Actualy, I think God said "It was good" not perfect. Right now, I look out at the world and think "It looks good", therefore no change has occured.
quote: And that plan is not changed if Genesis is figurative instead of literal.
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jar Member (Idle past 425 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Amlodhi asks:
"Then why did Jesus need to be born of a virgin?" That is part of the divinity of Jesus. The virgin birth (not unusual from a mythological point of view) helps establish that Jesus was more than simply a prophet. For Christians, that IS one of the core beliefs. We believe that Jesus was the Son of God. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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lfen Member (Idle past 4708 days) Posts: 2189 From: Oregon Joined: |
quote: Jar, That statement is part of the Nicene Creed, right. I've read that the original prophecy used a term that could as easily be interpreted as meaning "a young woman". Also read many scholars who dispute that Isiah was referring to a Jesus but rather to someone in his own time. Virgin births were a feature of many mythologies but didn't seem to be part of the Jewish view. I think it was the influence of paganism, gentiles whatever. I certainly don't thint it's scripturally necessary. Do you believe in the virgin birth? Do you believe some one could be considered a christian who didn't believe in it? Sometime during my high school years I stopped being a christian when I read through the Nicene creed and realised I could not honestly say I believed most of the stuff in it, and rather than try to come up with some scientifically "correct" Christianity I just dropped the whole thing. peace,lfen
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jar Member (Idle past 425 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Do you believe in the virgin birth? Do you believe some one could be considered a christian who didn't believe in it? Personally? No, I do subscribe to the Nicene Creed and consider it as the statement of my core beliefs. But there are many that also agree with various other interpretations of what the actaul words meant, whether virgin, young girl or some other variation. The actual words in the Creed are "Born of the Virgin Mary". That can be read either as a statement of her condition, or as a title of identification. The nature of Jesus has always been a contentious issue within Christianity. The main points disputed are:
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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lfen Member (Idle past 4708 days) Posts: 2189 From: Oregon Joined: |
Jar,
Weren't all those beliefs declared heresy? That is most christians would consider them heretics. lfen
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jar Member (Idle past 425 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Most of them, certainly. Arianism was considered the most serious of them but held out for a long time under the Goths and the churches founded under Gothic influence.
Monophysitism is still pretty common in some of the middle eastern churches and Egypt. You can still find traces of Socianism in the Jehova's Witnesses and Unitarians. There were many other heresies that revolved around features other than the nature of Jesus Christ. For example, Pelagianism which grew up in Britian, Gaul and Ireland is still very prevelant today. It is basically the difference between the modern mainstream Christain Church and some of the Evangelical Sects. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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Amlodhi Inactive Member |
quote: OK. I can accept that. What about the genealogies then, are they to be taken figuratively also? There was no Cain? No Abel? Noah? When would you say that real people begin to be described? Do understand, jar, I'm not baiting you. I have no emotional investment in this. I am pure skeptic. This is purely of academic interest to me, but very interesting, nonetheless. namaste' Amlodhi
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jar Member (Idle past 425 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
The geneologies are certainly mostly fiction. Their ages are pure fiction.
The most likely explaination for Cain and Abel is a representation of the conflict between the Nomad and more settled Farmer. Many of the others may point towards actual individuals, but exactly what the relationship was is most likely something we'll never know. The Noah story, Flood and Ark are absolutely figurative. Even if some powerful or influencial person named Noah lived, the flood and ark simply never happened. edited to fix spelling: This message has been edited by jar, 08-04-2004 10:25 PM Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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Hangdawg13 Member (Idle past 782 days) Posts: 1189 From: Texas Joined: |
The geneologies are certainly mostly fiction. Their ages are pure fiction. Now can you prove that?
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