The continuation of art styles through a speculated flood

Just having come back from Athens and the Olympics, it dawned on me that there is another piece of evidence rejecting a literal reading of the Bible's account of a global flood taking place just a few thousand years ago:The Cyclades.The Cyclades are a group of Greek islands in the Agean Sea that are home to some of the earliest works of statuary we have. If you watched the Opening Ceremonies of the Olympics, that big, primitive head of just a flat, triangular face with a nose bridge (no eyes, no mouth) is an example of Cycladic art.[From Early Cyclades I, about 3000 BCE]Now the thing is, and you'd think I would have remembered since my father was stationed in Greece and we have a copy of a Cycladic head, the Cycladic artistic period goes from about 3200 BCE to about 2000 BCE. And that's just the Early Cyclades.Now, a literal reading of the Bible and its chronology puts the flood somewhere in the third millenium BCE...right smack dab in the middle of the Early Cyclades. But this causes a problem: We have a continual artistic output during that time period.Now, ignoring the fact that none of these artworks show any sign of water damage, there is another question:Why would the descendants of Noah take up the Cycladic artistic model after the flood? If there were a global disaster that wiped out everybody except eight people, why would they pick up on the cultural traditions of a completely foreign society they knew nothing about and continue right where they left off?[From Early Cyclades II, about 2500 BCE]Perhaps it's because there was no global flood?

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Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

RAZD responds to me:

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as the term "modern art" is not enough to differentiate it from this stuff

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Nah, if it were modern art, it'd be made out of garbage, have some sort of body fluid, or require an ethernet cable.

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Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

I think I'm going to regret doing this since I tend to ignore WILLOWTREE, but....WILLOWTREE avoids my question entirely. Shall we try it again? I really want to know your explanation for this, WT. Why would the descendants of a group of eight people pick up the artistic style of a culture they had no connection to? And so completely so as to leave absolutely no trace of interruption? And so emphatically as to introduce no hint of outside cultural artifacts?Please explain why a bunch of Jews would pick up a pagan artistic style.

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Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

prophex responds to me:

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This is not very strong evidence my friend, esspecially since the flood's date is not actually known

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Incorrect. The flood date is actually quite well known given the explicit chronology of the Bible: Approximately 2250 BCE. All you have to do is add up the dates:Genesis 11:10: These are the generations of Shem: Shem was an hundred years old, and begat Arphaxad two years after the flood:
11:11: And Shem lived after he begat Arphaxad five hundred years, and begat sons and daughters.
11:12: And Arphaxad lived five and thirty years, and begat Salah:
11:13: And Arphaxad lived after he begat Salah four hundred and three years, and begat sons and daughters.
11:14: And Salah lived thirty years, and begat Eber:
11:15: And Salah lived after he begat Eber four hundred and three years, and begat sons and daughters.
11:16: And Eber lived four and thirty years, and begat Peleg:
11:17: And Eber lived after he begat Peleg four hundred and thirty years, and begat sons and daughters.
11:18: And Peleg lived thirty years, and begat Reu:
11:19: And Peleg lived after he begat Reu two hundred and nine years, and begat sons and daughters.
11:20: And Reu lived two and thirty years, and begat Serug:
11:21: And Reu lived after he begat Serug two hundred and seven years, and begat sons and daughters.
11:22: And Serug lived thirty years, and begat Nahor:
11:23: And Serug lived after he begat Nahor two hundred years, and begat sons and daughters.
11:24: And Nahor lived nine and twenty years, and begat Terah:
11:25: And Nahor lived after he begat Terah an hundred and nineteen years, and begat sons and daughters.
11:26: And Terah lived seventy years, and begat Abram, Nahor, and Haran.Counting all this up, this puts Abram being born 292 years after the flood.We then go to:Genesis 12:1: Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:
12:2: And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:
12:3: And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.
12:4: So Abram departed, as the LORD had spoken unto him; and Lot went with him: and Abram was seventy and five years old when he departed out of Haran.Thus, Abram was 75 when the covenant was established. Add that to the 292 years previous and we get 367 years.Whence to:Galatians 3:17: And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.Thus, the Exodus happened 430 years after the covenant. Add that 430 years to the 367 previous and we get 797.Finally to:1 Kings 6:1: And it came to pass in the four hundred and eightieth year after the children of Israel were come out of the land of Egypt, in the fourth year of Solomon's reign over Israel, in the month Zif, which is the second month, that he began to build the house of the LORD.Thus, Solomon's Temple was begun 480 years after the Exodus. Add that 480 years to the 797 previous and we get 1277 years, rounded off to 1300 for convenience.Now, all we need to do is date Solomon's Temple, date it, and then add 1277 years to determine when the flood was supposed to have happened.Well, according to the Catholic Church's position, after analysing the Bible for chronologies off of known kings, is that the Temple was started in 958 BCE (CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Chronology, Biblical) so we have a pretty good correlation there.Therefore, the flood must have happened about 2250 BCE.But, to be on the safe side, let's push it a bit further back since the Egyptian empire was thriving about that time (the Great Pyramid was built in the 26th century, after all, and there is no indication in the contiuous documentary record we have of Egypt that everybody died in a flood). We end up going to pre-history, pre-Bronze Age, right into the middle of Early Cyclades.Why would a bunch of Jews start copying a pagan artistic form they had never encountered before such that there is no evidence of any break in the timeline and no outside influence in the output?

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Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

Go right ahead, AdminNosy. I don't want this to be a general "flood can't happen/yes, it can" thread. Instead, I want a specific answer to my question:The Bible puts the flood somewhere in the middle of the third millenium BCE.The Cycladic period covers that entire range of time showing absolutely no break in output or Hebrew influence of style.Assuming that a global flood killed off everybody except eight people, why would their descendants pick up where the original inhabitants of the Cyclades leave off? Leaving no indication of a break in output? Showing no influence of their original Hebraic culture?F'rinstance, the vast majority of Cycladic art is of females. Since Hebrew culture is a heavily patriarchic structure, why are there so few male sculptures? And of those that do exist, why do they all exist as fulfilling a role (musician, hunter, etc.)? Why are there no sculptures simply of a male the way all the female Cycladic sculpture is?Why is it that the pottery decoration developed to the geometrical style rather than having any indication of Hebrew iconography? Why is it so indelibly Greek?

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Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

Lysimachus responds to me:

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Can you please explain to me in a simple child's language how this "cyladic art helps disprove the flood theory"? I don't see how this disproves it in anyway.

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Biblical chronology puts the flood at approximately 2250 BCE (see my above post).But the Cyclades were putting out art from 3200 BCE through 2000 BCE so even if we're too early by a few centuries, we still know that the flood supposedly happened sometime during the third millenium.Now, suppose there was a global flood right here and now and that you and seven members of your immediate family were the only survivors.If and when your descendants get back to China, do you seriously expect them to be able to pick up writing perfect Chinese in the precise dialect that existed in China at the moment of extinction? Why on earth would they absolutely abandon the culture that they were born and raised with for a cultural system they had absolutely no comprehension of? Why would they adamantly refuse to include a single reference to the Christian god in any of their artistic or literary output?In short, if you look at the state of the world, there was a decidedly fractured set of cultural output.How on earth did the descendants of eight intimately-connected people manage to go back to those places and pick up right where they left off as if nothing had happened?

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We don't believe they date that far back.So instead, you're going to have to first prove to us that they DO DATE back that far.

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Because physics works.Are you seriously saying that physics is wrong? The exact same physics that allows us to go to the moon, put geosynchronous satellites in orbit, create computer systems that can connect across the world, etc., etc., all that stuff is just a fake?

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We have the remains of Noah's Ark in Dogaboyazit Turkeys.

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No, you don't.It really is that simple.

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We have over 200 accounts of a global flood from ancient civilizations ALL around the globe.

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Insufficient.There's a flood going on right now in Florida.Does that mean I'm flooded here in California?

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We have IMMENSE worldwide evidence of a global flood!

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No, we don't.It really is that simple.

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I just wonder how much research you've really put into this.

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More than you since you seem to need it explained in "simple child's language."

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Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

Robert Byers responds to me:

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The great premise is that you proved when the art was created.

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And your evidence against the dating is what, precisely?

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The art is the work of the greek and is therefore post flood.

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Nobody lived in Greece prior to the flood? From whence does this idea come?

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The dating of the art is wrong and indeed un verifable.
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Incorrect.Assertion doesn't make it so. Where is your evidence that the dating is incorrect.Be specific.

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Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

AdminNosy writes:

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Let's ask both parties to give primary references for the dating of the art shall we.

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According to the Museum of Cycladic Art and the National Archaeological Museum of Athens in Athens, Greece, the Cycladic period goes from 3200 BCE to 2000 BCE. (Please note that Greek art goes back even further than the Cyclades such as the Chalcolithic, but I was making a point about a specific artistic style.)Now, as to the exact, specific method they used to date the items, I don't have that. However, I do trust the curators of the museums to be working in good faith with regard to the dating methods. Is the claim that everybody across the globe regarding the dating methods of artwork are working under false premises? It would be nice to know what the specific objections are.Some things I do know: You don't date a piece of stone sculpture by radiometric dating. That would simply tell you how old the stone is, not when it was carved. If I take a million year old piece of marble and carve it today, it's still a million year old piece of marble.You can, however, determine dating through the presence of the artwork in relation to other objects that can be dated radiometrically. For example, you can carbon date things like cloth. If you find the artwork with cloth objects and if it is reasonably certain that the site has not been disturbed, you have a reasonable claim that the carving is at least as old as the cloth. This gives you a lower date.On the flip site, you can examine the artwork for the types of tools that were used to create it. If you find flecks of bronze in the tool marks, then you know that the work can be no older than Bronze Age. This gives you an upper date.Thus, as you look over the artwork, the area in which it was found, the items found with it, the things embedded in the piece, you eventually come to a time period for when it was made.

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Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

WILLOWTREE responds to me:

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I have not ignored you or anyone else.

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I received a long sought after career advancement and unfortunately I cannot spend all god-damn day on-line.

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(*sigh*)My comment has nothing to do with the timing of your response. It has to do with the substance.In other words, if I ask you, "What is your name?" And you take two weeks to say, "My cat is a Persian," then my claiming that you have avoided my question has nothing to do with you taking so long to respond and everything to do with the fact that I asked you what your name is, not what kind of cat you have.Get over yourself.

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I really want to know your explanation for this, WT. Why would the descendants of a group of eight people pick up the artistic style of a culture they had no connection to?

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Who said 'they' had no connection to the Greeks ?

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They did, themselves.They were Jewish, after all, living on the Western shores of the Mediterranean. Throughout the entire narrative of Genesis up to that point, there is no mention of any civilization outside of the Fertile Crescent area.Similarly, if you look at the artifacts that we find from both areas, we see no cross-cultural remnants.

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Greek culture was a simulataneously developing civilization along side of Hebrew.

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But there is no Cycladic art outside of the Cyclades.And you're conflating time periods. You're confusing the Bronze Age period of the Hebrews with the PRE-Bronze Age period of the Cyclades.

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Please explain why a bunch of Jews would pick up a pagan artistic style.

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All Jews are Hebrews but not all Hebrews are Jews.

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True, and I apologize for my conflation. But again, you're avoiding the question:Why would eight people and their descendants who have no connection to the Cycladic artistic tradition suddenly pick it up?Whether or not we call them "Jews" or "Hebrews" is beside the point. Why would Noah and his descendants, who have no connection to the Cyclades, pick it up upon reaching them? Why is there absolutely no Hebraic influence upon the artwork? Why did the pottery become geometric in its painting?Why is it so overwhelmingly Greek in its style when the people who took it over were so definitively Hebrew?

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Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

prophex responds to me:

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Why would a bunch of Jews start copying a pagan artistic form they had never encountered before such that there is no evidence of any break in the timeline and no outside influence in the output?

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I play guitar and often find myself playing songs that I later find are not actually mine.

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You're missing the point. Read the sentence all the way through to the end:"No outside influence in the output."If you were to analyze your playing, you would find that you have your own distinct style and even if you play someone else's music, you can tell that it's you playing it.If a group of people from a completely distinct artistic tradition were to move to a new geographic location, why would they take up the previous civilization's artistic tradition? Especially with nobody to teach them the style? And how did they manage to completely prevent all remnants of their own heritage from showing up?

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If this could be related the the jewish people's artistry maybe one could think that they without knowing had made something that was not their own in reality.

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Not at all.In fact, I dare say it is impossible. With your guitar playing, are you sure you never heard the songs before? My guess is that you probably did. A lot of music is similar, many songs follow the same chord progressions, so I wouldn't be surprised to find you playing something that somebody else had also played.Sculpture isn't nearly so common. The musical equivalent would be a Chinese five-tone scale musician suddenly playing diatonic scales. The two simply don't relate.

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Using this logic, it doesn't seem like sturdy evidence.

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You're right. Your claim isn't sturdy at all.

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Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

WILLOWTREE writes:

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How could this be when Greek culture/civilization did not begin to form until 1100 to 1300 years AFTER the Flood ?

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Because Greek culture goes back to Neolithic time.In other words, your claim that Greek culture didn't appear until about 400 BCE is simply incorrect. National Archaeological Museum of AthensThey have pieces going back to the fifth millenium BCE.This is the flaw in your argument: You are confusing the Bronze Age period of the Hebrews with the Neolithic period of Greece.

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Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

WILLOWTREE writes:

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The Great Flood: 3145 BC

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Then you claim the Bible is wrong?Genesis 11:10: These are the generations of Shem: Shem was an hundred years old, and begat Arphaxad two years after the flood:
11:11: And Shem lived after he begat Arphaxad five hundred years, and begat sons and daughters.
11:12: And Arphaxad lived five and thirty years, and begat Salah:
11:13: And Arphaxad lived after he begat Salah four hundred and three years, and begat sons and daughters.
11:14: And Salah lived thirty years, and begat Eber:
11:15: And Salah lived after he begat Eber four hundred and three years, and begat sons and daughters.
11:16: And Eber lived four and thirty years, and begat Peleg:
11:17: And Eber lived after he begat Peleg four hundred and thirty years, and begat sons and daughters.
11:18: And Peleg lived thirty years, and begat Reu:
11:19: And Peleg lived after he begat Reu two hundred and nine years, and begat sons and daughters.
11:20: And Reu lived two and thirty years, and begat Serug:
11:21: And Reu lived after he begat Serug two hundred and seven years, and begat sons and daughters.
11:22: And Serug lived thirty years, and begat Nahor:
11:23: And Serug lived after he begat Nahor two hundred years, and begat sons and daughters.
11:24: And Nahor lived nine and twenty years, and begat Terah:
11:25: And Nahor lived after he begat Terah an hundred and nineteen years, and begat sons and daughters.
11:26: And Terah lived seventy years, and begat Abram, Nahor, and Haran.Counting all this up, this puts Abram being born 292 years after the flood.We then go to:Genesis 12:1: Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:
12:2: And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:
12:3: And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.
12:4: So Abram departed, as the LORD had spoken unto him; and Lot went with him: and Abram was seventy and five years old when he departed out of Haran.Thus, Abram was 75 when the covenant was established. Add that to the 292 years previous and we get 367 years.Whence to:Galatians 3:17: And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.Thus, the Exodus happened 430 years after the covenant. Add that 430 years to the 367 previous and we get 797.Finally to:1 Kings 6:1: And it came to pass in the four hundred and eightieth year after the children of Israel were come out of the land of Egypt, in the fourth year of Solomon's reign over Israel, in the month Zif, which is the second month, that he began to build the house of the LORD.Thus, Solomon's Temple was begun 480 years after the Exodus. Add that 480 years to the 797 previous and we get 1277 years, rounded off to 1200 for convenience.Now, all we need to do is date Solomon's Temple, date it, and then add 1277 years to determine when the flood was supposed to have happened.Well, according to the Catholic Church's position, after analysing the Bible for chronologies off of known kings, is that the Temple was started in 958 BCE (CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Chronology, Biblical) so we have a pretty good correlation there.Therefore, the flood must have happened about 2250 BCE.Why do you contradict the Bible for the date of the flood? I've given you my calculations. Where do you come up with your date?

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Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

prophex responds to me:

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People have similarities, that may effect their art.

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You're missing the point:You cannot have a similarity without an actual connection to establish the similarity.If you leave a person alone on a desert island, he is not going to come up with Chinese calligraphy. The only way you can learn Chinese calligraphy is to have some contact with it in the first place.If you find yourself playing music similar in style to someone else, it is because you have some connection, either from direct contact or through an intermediary.F'rinstance, I assume you play a standard guitar using the Western diatonic scale. You didn't invent that on your own.

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"No outside influence in the output."

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Doesn't matter

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Incorrect.That is the entire point. There is absolutely no influence from outside the culture. At no point does the Cycladic art become "Cycladic with Hebrew overtones." It remains quintessentially Greek.How on earth do you propose that a culture that was raised as Hebrews with absolutely no connection to the Cycladic tradition managed to perfectly emulate their artistic style with absolutely no connection to the one they were raised with? And not just this once but every other place on earth where there was civilization pre- and post-flood?Why is it we can't find Hebrew influence throughout the world if everybody is descended from them?

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Yes I have heard the songs probably, but the possibilty exists

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No, it doesn't. The possibility does not exist.

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If a group of people from a completely distinct artistic tradition were to move to a new geographic location, why would they take up the previous civilization's artistic tradition? Especially with nobody to teach them the style? And how did they manage to completely prevent all remnants of their own heritage from showing up?

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The possibility remains.

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No, it does not.You will never be capable of coming up with Chinese calligraphy on your own without study of existing works.

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People come to realizations, reflections, and ideas on their own

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True, but when it comes to artistic expression, those realizations, reflections, and ideas are never identical from person to person. Not even between people who are trying to make them the same. There is always a discrepancy.And yet, we do not find any discrepancies in the artistic output of the societies that existed pre- and post-flood.How is it that these Hebrews managed to do what nobody else has been able to manage and not just once but on a global scale such that we cannot find any Hebrew influence in that time period?

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Sculpture isn't nearly so common.

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Why?

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You seriously don't know?If you study Western music, you learn music theory. There is a mathematical foundation for the way in which the diatonic scale works. There is room for tremendous variation within that framework, but the simple fact of the matter is that there are no quarter tones in Western music. They simply do not exist. There is a physical reason why it is called a "Major third" but a "Perfect fourth." The very nature of the way the scale is distributed necessarily causes the circle of fifths that determines key.Sculpture, on the other hand, isn't tied so strongly to the physical nature of the structure. Carving something out of stone is significantly different from casting in bronze. And both of them are quite different from creating something out of Legos.

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Emphasis on evidence.

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That's what I've provided you.There are two museums you can go and visit that shows the extent of the Cycladic artistic output and you simply do not find any Hebrew influence.So given that the evidence shows no connection to Hebraic culture, how can one conclude that the Cyclades were destroyed in a global deluge and the descendents of a tiny number of Hebrews who had absolutely no connection to them managed to pick up right where it was left off with absolutely no indication of a break or change in authorship?And as someone else pointed out, since the reason god destroyed the world was because of the wickedness of the entire population, why on earth would they pick up the artistic traditions of those who were destroyed? Especially given the pagan nature of that tradition?

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Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

NosyNed responds to me:

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No, it doesn't. The possibility does not exist.

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I'm not sure, Rrhain, that that is strictly true.

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With regard to music? How on eath can one possibly learn diatonic music without having been introduced to it at some point? If you ask somebody who has never been introduce to any formal style of music, has never heard any musician anywhere, to come up with a structure of music, he isn't going to develop diatonic Major scales. The only way to get that is to have someone teach it to you.And the way it is taught to you is by example. You cannot learn Western music without being exposed to it. Each piece of music becomes something to emulate and vary. You will develop your own style, of course, but it will always and forever be influenced by the music you were exposed to as you were learning your craft.Now, I'm not saying that this comes down to the smallest detail. That is, I'm not saying there is nothing new under the sun and the only reason a composer would come up with E-A-B is because he was steeped in the "holy trinity of rock." I'm talking about large-scale structure. We would naturally expect smaller parts of a musical piece, even though identical, to be arrived at independently.But nobody is going to re-write "Stairway to Heaven" all on his own without having heard the original.That's one of the ways we know when the kiddies are cheating on their essay: They turn in the same sentences. Despite the fact that the entire class is generally drawing from the same set of facts, they would only develop identical large scale structure if they were copying from somewhere else.

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Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

prophex responds to me:

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But I am still unsure about the time, I mean your figure cannot be precise (exact) can it?

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Why not?Are you saying that archaeologists are so poorly trained that they are incapable of coming up with dates? That the entire field is based upon fraudulent practices? That they're just making things up out of whole cloth?It isn't like anybody is saying that this particular piece was started on July 24 and finished on October 12, 2734 BCE. The only way we could possibly know that is if it were written on the piece.You seem to be unwilling to accept the possibility that archaeologists are actually good at what they do.

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Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!