Brain and soul : seperate or the same?

I already have, on two counts. Bohr died in 1962, well before significant advances in the field of quantum mechanics. Also, he was wrong about the structure of the atom, so why couldn't he be wrong about this?

Relativity is older than quantum theory, but that doesn't make it any less valid......and of course he COULD be wrong, but you've presented no reason for me to believe he was.Soooo, until you quote me another authority who disagrees with Bohr, or present experimental evidence to the contrary, I (and you, for that matter, though you're arguing the point out of sheer stubborness) have no reason to doubt Bohr's claim that conciousness collapses the wave-function.

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"Atheists are just like theists; they find it highly disturbing when you try to weaken their faith." Myself, a couple minutes agoI think it's cute that Sidelined changed his quote to be in direct opposition of mine. Internal thought"I believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all that is, seen and unseen. I believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, of one Being with the Father. Through him all things were made. For us and for our salvation he came down from heaven: by the power of the Holy Spirit he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary, and was made man. For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate; he suffered death and was buried. On the third day he rose again in accordance with the Scriptures; he ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will have no end. I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son. With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified. He has spoken through the Prophets...I acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins. I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen." The Nicene CreedWinner of the LSS's 2004 Longest Signature Award

Wrong that pigs don't perform experiments? The other problem for you is that, as of yet, you haven't actually quoted Bohr in any way specifically applicable to the question at hand, which is, the definition of "observer" in the context of quantum mechanics.In quantum mechanics, an "observer" is simply any system which recieves information from an object. There's absolutely no requirement for consciousness whatsoever:

quote:

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The "observer system" O in quantum mechanics need not to be human or have any other property beside the possibility of interacting with the "observed" system S.

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Quantum mechanically, the only requirement for observer-hood is interaction, not consciousness.

Where's that quote from?Isn't it pretty self-explanatory that in order to observe an electron, you have to be concious?

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"Atheists are just like theists; they find it highly disturbing when you try to weaken their faith." Myself, a couple minutes agoI think it's cute that Sidelined changed his quote to be in direct opposition of mine. Internal thought"I believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all that is, seen and unseen. I believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, of one Being with the Father. Through him all things were made. For us and for our salvation he came down from heaven: by the power of the Holy Spirit he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary, and was made man. For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate; he suffered death and was buried. On the third day he rose again in accordance with the Scriptures; he ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will have no end. I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son. With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified. He has spoken through the Prophets...I acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins. I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen." The Nicene CreedWinner of the LSS's 2004 Longest Signature Award

No, you just have to interact with it. Another particle can be the observer if it interacts with it.

You're really showing that this isn't your field here, Crash......other particles interact with quanta all the time......in fact, ALL QUANTA DO are react with other particles. An electron orbits a nucleus in a cooperative way with other electrons, thereby interacting with both other electrons and the nucleus.And none of this collapses the wave-function.

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"Atheists are just like theists; they find it highly disturbing when you try to weaken their faith." Myself, a couple minutes agoI think it's cute that Sidelined changed his quote to be in direct opposition of mine. Internal thought"I believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all that is, seen and unseen. I believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, of one Being with the Father. Through him all things were made. For us and for our salvation he came down from heaven: by the power of the Holy Spirit he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary, and was made man. For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate; he suffered death and was buried. On the third day he rose again in accordance with the Scriptures; he ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will have no end. I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son. With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified. He has spoken through the Prophets...I acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins. I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen." The Nicene CreedWinner of the LSS's 2004 Longest Signature Award

I didn't say that all interacting particles become "observers", or collapse superpositions.The superposition only collapses when another particle or system gains information about the superposition. You don't have to be conscious to gain information.I shouldn't have said that "you just have to interact." That isn't the case. You just have to get information.This message has been edited by crashfrog, 11-06-2004 07:33 PM

And, like I said, particles gain information from one another constantly.......an electron has to gain information with the other electrons that it co-orbits its nucleus with constantly.And, again, where'd you get that quote? I have a feeling there's a REASON you're not answering this........

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"Atheists are just like theists; they find it highly disturbing when you try to weaken their faith." Myself, a couple minutes agoI think it's cute that Sidelined changed his quote to be in direct opposition of mine. Internal thought"I believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all that is, seen and unseen. I believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, of one Being with the Father. Through him all things were made. For us and for our salvation he came down from heaven: by the power of the Holy Spirit he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary, and was made man. For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate; he suffered death and was buried. On the third day he rose again in accordance with the Scriptures; he ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will have no end. I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son. With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified. He has spoken through the Prophets...I acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins. I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen." The Nicene CreedWinner of the LSS's 2004 Longest Signature Award

No, they don't. Not in the least. Why would it? Oh, some representative webpage about quantum mechanics. I'll try to dig it up again, but why don't you just Google for it?

"Because they orbit their nucleus in a cooperative way".........electrons often switch orbits with other electrons. Molecules are formed when electrons share an orbit around multiple nuclei. No, you do your own homework.......and I won't accept the validity of that quote until I see a source.

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"Atheists are just like theists; they find it highly disturbing when you try to weaken their faith." Myself, a couple minutes agoI think it's cute that Sidelined changed his quote to be in direct opposition of mine. Internal thought"I believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all that is, seen and unseen. I believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, of one Being with the Father. Through him all things were made. For us and for our salvation he came down from heaven: by the power of the Holy Spirit he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary, and was made man. For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate; he suffered death and was buried. On the third day he rose again in accordance with the Scriptures; he ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will have no end. I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son. With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified. He has spoken through the Prophets...I acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins. I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen." The Nicene CreedWinner of the LSS's 2004 Longest Signature Award

Now you're just making things up. Mm, no. At this point, after all your complaining about how hard I'm making it for you with my insistance that you corraborate your points with evidence, I'm not inclined to comply. You're clearly not interested in bringing anything but assertion to the debate; I don't intend on carrying on one-sided debates with unyielding ignorance.At any rate, I'll let Mr. Jack defend his points, at this point. He's certainly more knowledgable than I have the time to become.

Your ignorance of quantum function is ASTOUNDING if you did not know simple fact like the way electrons change their orbits........ I'm not asking you to back it with evidence, I'm asking you to actually NAME the source your quoting......NO academic source fails to name the source they're quoting.In fact, you're making it abundantly clear now that you just pulled the quote out of your ass..... Mr.Jack's already conceeded the point, apparently, as it takes stubborness of BIBLICAL proportions to have argued against the self-evident for this long......... On the subject of quantum physics, it'd take all of 5 minutes......

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"Atheists are just like theists; they find it highly disturbing when you try to weaken their faith." Myself, a couple minutes agoI think it's cute that Sidelined changed his quote to be in direct opposition of mine. Internal thought"I believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all that is, seen and unseen. I believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, of one Being with the Father. Through him all things were made. For us and for our salvation he came down from heaven: by the power of the Holy Spirit he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary, and was made man. For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate; he suffered death and was buried. On the third day he rose again in accordance with the Scriptures; he ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will have no end. I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son. With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified. He has spoken through the Prophets...I acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins. I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen." The Nicene CreedWinner of the LSS's 2004 Longest Signature Award

Relational Quantum Mechanics (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy) sigh... took me all of 2 seconds. The source is the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy. Well, since he hasn't posted anything at all since 10 this morning (server time), I'd say that's a hasty conclusion.Maybe he has, but I don't know why - even the least research shows that almost every statement you make on quantum mechanics, which, as I recall, you knew nothing about until a few weeks ago when I gave you a link to a quantum mechanics primer, is utterly and ridiculously errant.What's the problem? Those cartoons went over your head? Too bad.

Crashfrog is right, my last response was less than useful. Sorry.Have a look at this webpage: Quantum decoherence - Wikipedia - it's the wikipedia discussion of Decoherence; decoherence is the name for the process by which a quantum "particle" changes from it's superpositional state to a convential one. The part of the webpage to which I want to draw your attention is the section entitled "Mathematical details" - have a read of it, I don't expect you to understand the mathematics (it's degree level stuff) but you should be able to satisfy yourself that there is no mention at all of consciousness. None.Consciousness is not involved in the collapse of wave/particle duality.And here's some experimental evidence backing that up. You will, no doubt be familiar with the two-slit experiment? The one where you send photons (or electrons, or anything else really) through two slits and you get interference patterns (as if they're wave-life, and even if you only have one photon in the system at a time) but if you observe which slit the particle has gone through, the wave pattern suddenly disappers and you get two 'piles' of photons as you would expect if the photon behaves as a particle? Ok, here's a variation on that experiment: you still have the measuring devices over each slit to measure which slit an individual photon travels but instead of recording or displaying that data you don't connect the instruments to anything. In other words, although the photon's state is measured at this point it is not observed. The result: exactly the same as if you observe it. Conclusion: it is not conscious observation that causes decoherence but measurement, or more accurately, certain kinds of interaction with other particles.Again, consciousness is not a required element.

Gah, I see Rusty has been banned. Oh well.