Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9164 total)
2 online now:
Newest Member: ChatGPT
Post Volume: Total: 916,913 Year: 4,170/9,624 Month: 1,041/974 Week: 368/286 Day: 11/13 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Book -THE EVOLUTION OF A CREATIONIST
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 9004
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 3 of 17 (157498)
11-08-2004 11:35 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by winston123180
11-08-2004 10:14 PM


Chapter 1
Let's have a look at this chapter by chapter.
Besides all sorts of personal stuff there seem to be only two points in the first chapter.
1)
quote:
My university science professors had not told me that I was making some significant assumptions by believing in the Big Bang model. The Big Bang is the belief that the universe and all it contains is the result of matter, so dense that the matter was invisible, suddenly exploding in a mega-explosion labelled by evolutionary scientists as the Big Bang.[1] Many scientists believe that this explosion occurred between eight and twenty billion years ago. To accept the Big Bang, one must assume the existence of matter and energy to be eternal. The Big Bang model only attempts to explain the ordering of matter and energy, not their origin. Matter had to be eternally present before the Big Bang or there would have been nothing there to go BOOM! We discover here that everyone on earth believes in something eternal by faith. It is either faith in eternal matter and energy or faith in eternal God.
and
2)
quote:
When I am addressing the issue of creation with maturity (or the appearance of age) with a class of college students, invariably a hand will go up at that point of the discussion. The student will say, Then God is a liar. He created something that is not what it appears to be if He created Adam, Eve, and dinosaurs full grown. They looked old, but were not old. No, God is not a liar. He told us exactly what He did in Genesis l and 2. Our problem is that we do not think we can believe it. Instead of believing the Bible, we have accepted the speculative theories of evolution.
The first one about the big bang is simply God of the gaps theology. Since we don't know what came before there is a gap in our knowledge. Not knowing something is not a reason for making up an untestable explanation. Over and over again in history there have been gaps in knowledge into which God has been pushed as an explanation. Thunder, disease and life on earth. Over and over theose gaps have closed. Sophisticated theologians understand how poor this arugment is.
The big bang itself, of course, has excellent observations in support of it. It has been observed.
The second one is not complete. The issue is that God, if he formed everything, has left unnecessary appearances of age. This is a form of lying. It isn't any necessary appearances of age that, it might be argued, are required to make things work.
Additionally, if that is all the creationists want, that is for everyone to say "God made it appear that...." in front of every scientific finding then ok. If that is done then all the science stays as it is and the people who keep saying this will look a bit silly if the phrase is completed to say "God made it appear that ... even though it isn't really". Eventually it gets harder and harder to explain why God would do such a thing.
This usually reduces to the "God is mysterious, we can't know Him". In which case, shut up! Since you know nothing about what you talk about stop acting as if you do.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by winston123180, posted 11-08-2004 10:14 PM winston123180 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by winston123180, posted 11-09-2004 3:18 AM NosyNed has not replied
 Message 8 by Percy, posted 11-09-2004 10:37 AM NosyNed has replied
 Message 10 by Loudmouth, posted 11-09-2004 12:00 PM NosyNed has not replied

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 9004
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 5 of 17 (157520)
11-09-2004 1:05 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by winston123180
11-08-2004 10:14 PM


Chapter 2
This is the bombadier beetle and has already been discussed here a number of times.
Someone may, for completeness, feel like gathering the arguements here.
Sorry, there are futher discussions. I'll edit them in here later.
This message has been edited by NosyNed, 11-09-2004 01:08 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by winston123180, posted 11-08-2004 10:14 PM winston123180 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by General Nazort, posted 11-12-2004 12:00 AM NosyNed has not replied

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 9004
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 11 of 17 (157622)
11-09-2004 12:04 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Percy
11-09-2004 10:37 AM


Observing the big bang
You are, of course, correct Percy. But what that is saying is that our observations are imperfect. They are like a telescope with limited resolving power. It doesn't mean they aren't observations it just means that we can't see all the way back or all the details.
A parallel is the "observation" of extra-solar planets. I would claim that we are observing them. However, the nature of the observations are of poor "resolution" and not the last word on the subject.
For Winston:
Try googling "microwave background radiation".
Another "observation" is the current ratio of elements in the universe. This has, apparently (since I'm not able to do the calculations myself) been calculated from theory regarding the initial state of the universe.
An additional "observation" is the current rate of recession of other galaxies and the tie from this to the current temperature of the background radiation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Percy, posted 11-09-2004 10:37 AM Percy has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024