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Author | Topic: Creationist Baumgardner: one of the top mainstream mantle/plate tectonics simulators! | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Randy Member (Idle past 6276 days) Posts: 420 From: Cincinnati OH USA Joined: |
quote: Sure, if you spread it over 150 million years you probably don’t have much problem at all.
quote: Calculation on heat radiation from an earth sized planet indicate that to shed 10^28 J of heat (probably less than the total released) in 100 years requires an average surface temperature over the whole time of about 300 C and even then you must ignore the effect of all the greenhouse gases that would have been pumped into the atmosphere. There is no saving this absurd model and the actual prehistory of our planet does not include Noah’s flood so there is no need to try to save it. But in any case Buamagardner says that the subduction process was fast Here’s a quote from an interview here.Page not found – Creation In The Crossfire That's correct. Exactly how long is something I'm working to refine. But it seems that once this sinking of the pre-Flood ocean floor starts (in a conveyor-belt-like fashion down into the earth, pulling things apart behind it), it is not a slow process spanning millions of years. It's almost certain that it runs to completion and, recycles' all of the existing floor in a few weeks or months. I added the bold. Baumgardner also says that a significant fraction of the oceans boiled away. Anyone who thinks that a significant fraction of the oceans could boil without killing off all life on earth is ignoring some very basic science and in my opinion does not deserve to be taken seriously.
quote: Now you are leaving Baumgardner and the runaway subduction model completely. It is explicitly stated that virtually all of the continent movement occurred during the flood year. In fact, I think most of it was supposedly over in 150 days. The division of the lands in the time of Peleg clearly refers to a political division and I doubt that any serious Bible scholars have ever thought it referred to physical separation of the lands. Even AiG rejects this one.Randy
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Dr_Tazimus_maximus Member (Idle past 3246 days) Posts: 402 From: Gaithersburg, MD, USA Joined: |
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Randy:
Calculation on heat radiation from an earth sized planet indicate that to shed 10^28 J of heat (probably less than the total released) in 100 years requires an average surface temperature over the whole time of about 300 C and even then you must ignore the effect of all the greenhouse gases that would have been pumped into the atmosphere. Randy [/B][/QUOTE] Please do not forget the acidization due to sulfates blowing through the seawater at high temperatures(I believe that I posted a link to this earlier). Likely it would have made the acid rain in the US and Canadian Northwest look very mild in comparison . ------------------"Chance favors the prepared mind." L. Pasteur Taz
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Randy Member (Idle past 6276 days) Posts: 420 From: Cincinnati OH USA Joined: |
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dr_Tazimus_maximus:
[B][QUOTE]Originally posted by Randy: Calculation on heat radiation from an earth sized planet indicate that to shed 10^28 J of heat (probably less than the total released) in 100 years requires an average surface temperature over the whole time of about 300 C and even then you must ignore the effect of all the greenhouse gases that would have been pumped into the atmosphere. Randy [/B][/QUOTE] Please do not forget the acidization due to sulfates blowing through the seawater at high temperatures(I believe that I posted a link to this earlier). Likely it would have made the acid rain in the US and Canadian Northwest look very mild in comparison . [/B][/QUOTE] I haven't forgotten it. It's just that its hard to kill things that are already dead. I think I said before that the final result will be supercritical acid steam.Randy
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Tranquility Base Inactive Member |
Randy
Is the 10^28 J from runaway subduction, 500 million years worth of radiodecay or both? I'm aware that AIG doesn't go for Peleg like that - I simply raise it as a possibility. I agree with everything you're saying except I still let the model sit there awaiting future advances. In the mean time I will agree with you that the heat at this point is a model killer.
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Joe Meert Member (Idle past 5709 days) Posts: 913 From: Gainesville Joined: |
quote: JM: Don't forget the misuse of parameters and the fact that the ocean floor is now deeper than 15 meters predicted by Baumgardner. The model committed suicide, there is no need for us to kill it. Cheers Joe Meert
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Tranquility Base Inactive Member |
^ Let's just remember how hard it was for continental drift to become accepted. Sniff . . sniff. I am detecting high levels of irony around here.
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edge Member (Idle past 1735 days) Posts: 4696 From: Colorado, USA Joined: |
quote: There is, however, a major difference. Wegener had evidence and a theory, but no mechanism. You, on the other hand, have only a poorly concocted theory and a fantastic mechanism for an event that there is no evidence ever happened.
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Randy Member (Idle past 6276 days) Posts: 420 From: Cincinnati OH USA Joined: |
quote: I think we have been over this before. Here is what the ICR paper says
quote: This potential energy will mostly be converted to heat by friction during the subduction process. It has to be dissipated somehow. However, this is only a fraction of the heat released. The entire ocean floor is supposedly subducted and replaced by mantle material. The mantle material is so hot that it’s viscosity is far lower than mantle is now and it is supposed to be enough thicker due to thermal expansion to raise sea level another kilometer or so. The only way the sea level can come back down is for the new crust to contract and solidify. To do this it must release its heat content. I have seen estimates that this would release another 10^28 J or so but have not done the calculation myself. Remember that this mantle supposedly has a radiogenic heat production of 0.02 W/M^3 going on as well which will generate another 6.2*10^5 J/M^3 of mantle during the flood year. Not all of the radiogenic heat will be released to the surface but enough must be released to solidify the crust. You have heat sources on top of heat sources. Kurt Wise admits that the runaway subduction process releases enough heat to boil the oceans several times over and these along with massive vulcanism that must be occurring are the sources of the heat. That’s why it should be called the boiling flood model but I usually call it a recipe for steamed ark soup. As Taz points out it would be steamed ark soup flavored with sulfuric acid. Randy
quote: And did anyone say that continental drift was easy to falsify because it cooked the earth to death thousands of times over? I don't think so. The irony here is how otherwise intellegent people can so steadfastly refuse to apply logical scientific analysis to the boiling flood model in the vain hope that it may somehow be used to support their religious beliefs. BTW to try to put 10^28 J in perspective a megaton of TNT is 4.18*10^15 J. 10^28 J is energy equivalent to 2.4 trillion one megaton hydrogen bombs. Randy
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Tranquility Base Inactive Member |
Yes this is all very constraining. By maybe, in the wash, it all just works out and the ark really was there to protect those on baord from a truly bizarre event. And maybe we now know the real reason for the marine extinctions. Only small pockets of life survived to repopulate.
So I'll believe that. I'll beleive that the Bible is not kidding in talking about a recent global flood. You can believe that life evolved from slime. It's faith for both of us. [This message has been edited by Tranquility Base, 08-21-2002]
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Joe Meert Member (Idle past 5709 days) Posts: 913 From: Gainesville Joined: |
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Tranquility Base:
[B]Yes this is all very constraining. By maybe, in the wash, it all just works out and the ark really was there to protect those on baord from a truly bizarre event. And maybe we now know the real reason for the marine extinctions. Only small pockets of life survived to repopulate. So I'll believe that. I'll beleive that the Bible is not kidding in talking about a recent global flood. You can believe that life evolved from slime. It's faith for both of us.
[/QUOTE] JM: In the end, if the science is unsalvageable, take a leap of faith. The ultimate cop-out. Furthermore, you can toss in a non-sequiter to go along with it. The existence/non-existence of a global flood has nothing to do with whether or not one agrees with evolution nor does evolution say life evolved from slime. Sometimes, your statements make me wonder if you are making up your credentials. Cheers Joe Meert
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edge Member (Idle past 1735 days) Posts: 4696 From: Colorado, USA Joined: |
quote: I'm not sure how you reach this conclusion. Please explain.
quote: This is just another example of how creationists can rationalize anything, but the point is that there would be no 'small pockets of life.'
quote: Nice propaganda tactic, but no substance.
quote: Not really. Faith is the belief in something without evidence. In your case, this is very true. You have none. In the case of old earth-evolution, at least there is evidence.
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Tranquility Base Inactive Member |
Our faith that Noah et al somehow survived on the ark is not much different than you believing that the first cell somehow popped out of the proverbial soup.
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Randy Member (Idle past 6276 days) Posts: 420 From: Cincinnati OH USA Joined: |
quote: And what makes you think I believe this. I'll let the others speak for themselves but I think it might be possible that life arose naturally though we may never figure out how and I accept the overwhelming evidence for evolution and common descent but these are really separate issuses. I do notice that this claim is the last refuge of the cornered creationist. When faced with overwhelming evidence against the global flood don't give up. Just attack abiogenesis. Your faith in old Noah is a purely religous belief that obviously can never be swayed in spite of the fact that there is massive evidence against a global flood and none for it.Randy
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Tranquility Base Inactive Member |
^ I don't think that changes the validity of what I said.
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Joe Meert Member (Idle past 5709 days) Posts: 913 From: Gainesville Joined: |
quote: JM: YOu're correct because you've yet to say anything valid. Cheers Joe Meert
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