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Author Topic:   Quantum Interference
JustinC
Member (Idle past 4874 days)
Posts: 624
From: Pittsburgh, PA, USA
Joined: 07-21-2003


Message 16 of 31 (169183)
12-16-2004 10:30 PM


That seems like the exact explantion I need. The problem is I can't understand it. More specifically, can you describe this equation:
|state) = 1/sqrt(2){|1, up)|1, down) + |1, down)|2, up)}
What do the vertical straight lines mean, why are there open paranthesis, and what do commas mean? Is there a link to this equation that is easier to understand?

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by Peeper, posted 12-17-2004 3:21 AM JustinC has replied

  
Peeper
Inactive Member


Message 17 of 31 (169203)
12-17-2004 12:07 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by RAZD
12-16-2004 8:54 PM


Re: Phase wrong among other things
Blocking either the up or down paths intercepts one of the photons, keeping it from interfereing with the other at the beam splitter. That way, you can check to see if the photons are reflected and transmitted with a 50% probability at the beam splitter under non-interference conditions. The advantage I see to this method is that it tests the actual setup used to to observe the effects of interference.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by RAZD, posted 12-16-2004 8:54 PM RAZD has replied

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 Message 18 by RAZD, posted 12-17-2004 12:30 AM Peeper has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1435 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 18 of 31 (169210)
12-17-2004 12:30 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by Peeper
12-17-2004 12:07 AM


Re: Phase wrong among other things
but it doesn't test to see that it happens anyway or that something else happens.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Peeper, posted 12-17-2004 12:07 AM Peeper has not replied

  
Peeper
Inactive Member


Message 19 of 31 (169250)
12-17-2004 3:21 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by JustinC
12-16-2004 10:30 PM


The website I got the derivation from pretty much spelled it out the way I have it so I don’t think it will be much more help. The lines and parentheses are my limited graphics way of trying to reproduce the typical quantum representations of things.
The symbol |x) that I have [as in |state) or |up)] represents the state of the system or particle. The usual representation is actually |x> and is called a ket, but as you can see the graphics don’t really come out that good. Heh, actually they only look like crap in my word program. They actually look pretty good here. Therefore, I’m going to switch notations on you and use things like |state> and |up> instead. These kets are closely related to the wavefunctions of the system. In fact, for our purposes, we can just consider them to be the wavefunctions for the system. With that in mind
|state> — This is the total wavefunction for our two photon system.
|1> and |2> — These would be the wavefunctions of our two photons, photon 1 and photon 2.
However, since we have to consider each photon as traveling along all possible paths each photon actually has 2 wavefunctions, one for the up path and one for the down path. I have these represented like so
|1,up> — Wavefunction for photon 1 along the up path.
|1,down> — Wavefunction for photon 1 along the down path.
|2,up> — Wavefunction for photon 2 along the up path.
|2,down> — Wavefunction for photon 2 along the up path.
The total wavefunction |state> is made up of a linear superposition (this means we just add them together) of all possible states of the system. This gives
|state> = 1/sqrt(2) {|1,up>|2,down> + |1,down>|1,up>}
The factor 1/sqrt(2) (the inverse of the square root of 2) is just a normalization factor which ensures that the total probability for the system to be found in some state is equal to one.
Inside the brackets notice we do not have a states such as |1,up>|2,up> or |1,down>|2,down>. This represents the fact that one of the photons must travel along the upper path and one of the photons must travel along the lower path (in other words |1,up>|2,up> = |1,down>|2,down> = 0). This leaves the only non-zero possible states |1,up>|2,down> and |1,down>|2,up>.
So what is the reality of the situation? Did photon 1 travel along the upper path and photon 2 along the lower? Or did photon 2 travel along the upper path and photon 1 along the lower?
What quantum mechanics shows us is that it is not correct to consider each photon as going along a specific path. Instead we must consider each photon as going along all possible paths simultaneously. This, of course, seems absurd. However, it makes a physical difference whether the photons travel along a specific path or all possible paths and so the question of what path(s) the photons take is not a metaphysical one but an experimental one.
That said, the total wavefunction for our photons must include the possibilities for each photon to travel along both the upper and lower path. This is why both the states (wavefunctions) |1,up>|2,down> and |1,down>|2,up> are included.
The beam splitter gives us two possible paths to the detectors for photons traveling along the upper and lower paths. This means that the up and down states (wavefunctions) (ie. |up> and |down>) are actually comprised of a linear superposition of two other states (wavefunctions), one leading to detector d1 and one leading to detector d2.
The next question is then, how do we represent the states |up> and |down> in terms of the states leading to the two detectors |d1> and |d2>? This is where the question of phase comes in.
You asked how you should try to visualize these wavefuntions along the possible paths and I said to just consider them as sine functions. A better (at least easier mathematically) way to visualize them is in terms of the exponential function such as
|x> = exp[i{(kx-wt) + phase}] = e^i[(kx-wt) + phase] = exp[i(phase)] * exp[i(kx-wt)].
These are known as plane waves.
i is the imaginary number sqrt(-1)
k is the wavenumber and is related to the momentum of the photon.
x is the photon position.
w is the photon frequency which is related to its energy
t is time.
A few things about the experimental setup are important to note.
1) The photons are identical. Therefore, their wavefunctions have identical values for k and w.
2) The photons always travel the same distance to reach a given detector whether they travel along the upper or lower path. Therefore, at the detectors the wavefunctions have identical values for x and t.
This implies that at the detectors the wavefunctions for the photons are identical except for the phase difference exp[i(phase)]. The difference in phase is caused by a phase shift in the wavefunction upon reflection of the photon from the beam splitter. Dr. Rioux sets the value of this phase shift at 90 deg or pi/2. For transmission through the beam splitter there is no change in phase.
Since the only difference in the wavefunctions at the detectors is the difference in phase, there is no sense in writing out the factor exp[i(kx-wt)] everywhere. Therefore, it can just be symbolized |d1> and |d2>. Keep in mind though the actual wavefunctions at the detectors are exp[i(phase)]|d>.
Ok, for transmission through the beam splitter there is no change in phase and we have exp[0] = 1 (transmission)
For reflection we have exp[i(pi/2)] = i (reflection)
Now we are in a position to construct the wavefunctions |up> and |down> in terms of the wavefunctions leading to detectors d1 and d2.
For a photon traveling along the upper path it must be reflected to reach detector d1 and transmitted to reach detector d2. A superposition of the wavefunctions then gives
|up> = 1/sqrt(2) {i|d1> + |d2>}.
For a photon traveling along the lower path it must be reflected to reach detector d2 and transmitted to reach detector d1. A superposition of the wavefunctions then gives
|down> = 1/sqrt(2) {|d1> +i |d2>}.
Once again, the factor 1/sqrt(2) is just there to ensure that the probability that a photon arrives at either d1 or d2 is equal to 1.
Obviously we have these up and down wavefunctions for both photon 1 and photon 2. This is where I get things like
|1,up> = 1/sqrt(2) {i|1,d1> + |1,d2>} and so forth.
Now just substitute these expanded wave functions back into our total wavefunction equation
|state> = 1/sqrt(2) {|1,up>|2,down> + |1,down>|1,up>}
and solve. Take the magnitude square of the coefficient in front of each state [for example |1,d1>|2,d1>] to get the probabilities for the various photon detector combinations.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by JustinC, posted 12-16-2004 10:30 PM JustinC has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by JustinC, posted 12-17-2004 12:07 PM Peeper has replied

  
JustinC
Member (Idle past 4874 days)
Posts: 624
From: Pittsburgh, PA, USA
Joined: 07-21-2003


Message 20 of 31 (169378)
12-17-2004 12:07 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Peeper
12-17-2004 3:21 AM


First off, I'd like to thank you for taking the time to explain this to me. Luckily I just got done learning about the wave functions in physics, so I can follow these steps pretty well. Also, I did a little bit of linear superposition when combining atomic orbitals to get molecular orbitals in chemistry courses.
I have a few questions.
First off, I think
|state> = 1/sqrt(2) {|1,up>|2,down> + |1,down>|1,up>}
should be
|state> = 1/sqrt(2) {|1,up>|2,down> + |1,down>|2,up>}
? I think you just made a typo.
Second, why do you multiply |1,up> and |2,down> when writing the wave equation? I assume it's because they represent one possible reality, but should I just take it as a given that you multiply them in the function?
Third, are |d1> and |d2> identical? If so, why don't you use the same variable for them?
Finally, can you explain
Take the magnitude square of the coefficient in front of each state [for example |1,d1>|2,d1>] to get the probabilities for the various photon detector combinations.
Once I plug in the wave equations into the original equation, what do I solve for?
Thanks again

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Peeper, posted 12-17-2004 3:21 AM Peeper has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by Peeper, posted 12-17-2004 1:23 PM JustinC has replied

  
JustinC
Member (Idle past 4874 days)
Posts: 624
From: Pittsburgh, PA, USA
Joined: 07-21-2003


Message 21 of 31 (169389)
12-17-2004 12:29 PM


Is this the total wave equation:
1/sqr(2)= 0
|state>= 0 { {0(i|1,d1> + |1,d2>)} {0(|2,d1> + i|2,d2>)} + {0(|1,d1> + i|1,d2>)} {0(i|2,d1> + |2,d2>)}}
This message has been edited by JustinCy, 12-17-2004 12:47 PM

  
Peeper
Inactive Member


Message 22 of 31 (169403)
12-17-2004 1:23 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by JustinC
12-17-2004 12:07 PM


You are correct, I made a typo. The correct wavefunction is as you have it
|state> = 1/sqrt(2) {|1,up>|2,down> + |1,down>|2,up>}.
Second, why do you multiply |1,up> and |2,down> when writing the wave equation? I assume it's because they represent one possible reality, but should I just take it as a given that you multiply them in the function?
This also seems correct. The total wavefunction describes the probability (amplitude) for the two particles to be at two particular points in space at a particular time. Suppose one of the particles has a zero probability to be at a particular point in space at a given time. Then the total wavefunction must also vanish for a state in which that particle is to be found at that particular point at the given time. This shows the wavefunctions are multiplicative not additive.
*You can also think of it in terms of probabilities. What is the probability of both A and B? ( Probability of A) * (Probability of B).
Third, are |d1> and |d2> identical? If so, why don't you use the same variable for them?
|d1> and |d2> give the probability (amplitudes) for the photons be to found at the distinct locations d1 and d2. Basically, they are wavefunction amplitudes evaluated at different points in space. If we labeled them the same there would be confusion as to which point in space the interference was taking place.
Once I plug in the wave equations into the original equation, what do I solve for?
Perhaps I should have said reduce the equation to its simplest form, or combine like terms and square the coefficients.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by JustinC, posted 12-17-2004 12:07 PM JustinC has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by JustinC, posted 12-17-2004 1:54 PM Peeper has not replied

  
JustinC
Member (Idle past 4874 days)
Posts: 624
From: Pittsburgh, PA, USA
Joined: 07-21-2003


Message 23 of 31 (169414)
12-17-2004 1:54 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Peeper
12-17-2004 1:23 PM


quote:
Perhaps I should have said reduce the equation to its simplest form, or combine like terms and square the coefficients.
Yeah, I figured that out right after I wrote the post.
Ok, I did the math and got -1/2 for each. So, just one more question. Does it matter that it is negative instead of positive? Or do the probabilities just have to add up to 1, independent of the sign?
Edit: Ok, 2 more questions. Why do you have to square the coefficients to get the probability?
This message has been edited by JustinCy, 12-17-2004 01:59 PM
This message has been edited by JustinCy, 12-17-2004 02:05 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Peeper, posted 12-17-2004 1:23 PM Peeper has not replied

  
JustinC
Member (Idle past 4874 days)
Posts: 624
From: Pittsburgh, PA, USA
Joined: 07-21-2003


Message 24 of 31 (169437)
12-17-2004 2:19 PM


If those questions force you to explain to me the intricacies of statistics and probability, don't worry about it. I never had a statistics class in college and probably wouldn't be able to understand it.

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by Peeper, posted 12-21-2004 6:14 PM JustinC has not replied

  
Peeper
Inactive Member


Message 25 of 31 (170574)
12-21-2004 6:14 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by JustinC
12-17-2004 2:19 PM


Sorry for the delay, I had to go out of town.
Your first question is do the probabilities have to add up to one, independent of sign?.
Normally, in physics, complex numbers are used to simplify the mathematics. The Schrodinger equation, however, requires that the wave function be complex. I can derive the Schrodinger equation for you if you need it, but understand the Schrodinger equation cannot be derived. It is a new theory whose validity is tested through experiment, not derived through an extension of pre-existing theories.
What is the reality of a vector? It is not the vector itself, which is only a representation. A vector (in 3d space) can be defined in terms of its x, y and z components. However, upon rotation of the coordinate axis, the x, y and z components change. So what is the reality of the vector? That would be its length. The length of a vector is invariant upon rotation. The square of the vector length is given by
R^2 = x^2 + y^2 + z^2 (irrespective of basis)
So what is the length of a vector in complex space?
Complex space is mapped like so
Imaginary
|
|
|
_______________Real
Therefore, to determine the length of a vector in complex space one must take the dot product of the vector with its COMPLEX CONJUGATE. When one take the complex conjugate of a number one replaces i (the imaginary number) with -i.
For example, for a vector of unit (1) length in complex space written
R = 1/sqrt(2) [1 + i],
its square magnitude (squared length) would be determined by
R^2 = (1/2) [1+i]*[1-i].
This gives a unit length of 1 regardless of rotation.
Therefore, if you want to know the magnitude squared of the wave function, you must always multiply the wavefunction by its complex conjugate. This always results in a positive number. This means the probabilities will always be positive. Hope this answers your first question.
2cnd questionSo why is the probability the square of the wavefunction (amplitude)?.
The short answer is simple, the philosophical answerheh.
Aside
I am pretty much a lurker on this board and I sincerely enjoy reading the comments of those who post. I will verify (although I do not know why Buzsaw assumed in the thread on the 3 thermodynamic laws) that I am an atheist. It seems that many believers would like to incorporate science into their arguments for God, but in doing so they seem to only half-heartly embrace the findings of science. The empirical evidence for the validity of modern physics is truly outstanding. The precision with which quantum mechanics (field theory, QED, etc) can predict phenomena is truly incredible. However, what do our theories truly say? What is to be said of the western philosophy of reductionism? In the end our best theories of science point to a world of probabilities not reality. Is the sum more than its parts? Have we reached the limit where not considering the whole begins to become meaningless? Can consciousness really be understood in terms of reductionism?
BahI am an experimental physicist not a philosopher.
As the esteemed physicists Richard Feynman said no one understands quantum mechanics. I (personally) find it amazing that we understand anything at the quantum level at all. All our understanding stems from the understanding of how things we observe (ie. at the macroscopic level) behave. We understand how springs work, or waves on a string, and we are able to incorporate that into our understanding of atoms and subatomic particles, yet there is no a priori reason why this should be so. There is no reason why the subatomic world should act in any way we understand whatsoever.
End aside
As with most of quantum mechanics, we look at things we do understand to give us guidance in the quantum mechanical world. According to Newton’s laws, the energy of an oscillating system is proportional to the square of the amplitude of the wave (oscillation). For example, consider the oscillating system described by
x = A sin(wt).
The velocity is described by
v = Aw cos(wt).
Therefore, (classically) the kinetic energy is
KE = (1/2) mv^2 = (1/2) (Aw)^2 cos^2 (wt).
This shows that on average the kinetic energy of the system is proportional to A^2. Since energy is conserved this also shows that the total energy must also be proportional to A^2.
To use an example from electromagnetic theory, for an oscillating electric field
E(t) = E0 sin(wt),
where E0 is the maximum amplitude of the field.
The energy of an electric field goes like E^2. Therefore, the average energy of the field is proportional to (E0)^2.
Using the Einstein relation: Energy = nhw (The energy is quantized into a number of photons.)
This means that the average number of photons at a given point is proportional to the square amplitude of the wave.
So what does this mean in terms of the wavefunction for a SINGLE photon? That the square amplitude of the wavefunction must give the probability for the photon to be at that particular point in space.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by JustinC, posted 12-17-2004 2:19 PM JustinC has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by Peeper, posted 12-21-2004 7:34 PM Peeper has replied

  
Peeper
Inactive Member


Message 26 of 31 (170587)
12-21-2004 7:34 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Peeper
12-21-2004 6:14 PM


I apologize, I left out mass in my equation. It should read
KE = (m/2)(Aw)^2 cos^2(wt).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Peeper, posted 12-21-2004 6:14 PM Peeper has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by Peeper, posted 12-21-2004 9:36 PM Peeper has not replied

  
Peeper
Inactive Member


Message 27 of 31 (170619)
12-21-2004 9:36 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Peeper
12-21-2004 7:34 PM


Also, just to tie things up, why is the wavefunction required to be complex?
Without the complex nature of the wavefunction, there would be no interference term in the squared amplitude of the total wavefunction. The experiment you asked about, which started this thread, is designed to test this interference. Therefore, the complex nature of the wavefunction is required in order for the theory to correspond to reality.
Aside
So what exactly is the wavefunction? It seems to dictate reality, but in and of itself, it is not real.
Any ideas?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Peeper, posted 12-21-2004 7:34 PM Peeper has not replied

  
JustinC
Member (Idle past 4874 days)
Posts: 624
From: Pittsburgh, PA, USA
Joined: 07-21-2003


Message 28 of 31 (170835)
12-22-2004 2:38 PM


I'm reading Schrodinger's Kittens and The Search For Reality by John Gribbin right now. I should be done by the end of my break. At the end he is going to discuss where the Copenhagan Interpretation breaks down and what might possibly supercede it. So, if I get any insights I'll try and make some comments on the reality of wave function. I think Gribbon's is going to put forth a string theory model from glimpsing at the end.
I'm sure, though, that you have already looked at all of these developments carefully and realize that there is no satisfactory explanation at the moment.

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by Peeper, posted 01-05-2005 2:18 PM JustinC has replied

  
Peeper
Inactive Member


Message 29 of 31 (174137)
01-05-2005 2:18 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by JustinC
12-22-2004 2:38 PM


I don't really know much about string theory. Let me know if he says anything neat. Thanks

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by JustinC, posted 12-22-2004 2:38 PM JustinC has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by JustinC, posted 01-05-2005 9:39 PM Peeper has replied

  
JustinC
Member (Idle past 4874 days)
Posts: 624
From: Pittsburgh, PA, USA
Joined: 07-21-2003


Message 30 of 31 (174239)
01-05-2005 9:39 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by Peeper
01-05-2005 2:18 PM


Well, the book only talked about string theory vaguely, so I probably couldn't tell you anything new.
The thesis was about a reinterpretation of quantum phenomena. Shrodingers kitten is a good example. Let's use the classic version, in which a cat is in a box with a atom that has a 50:50 chance of decaying, and there's a detector in the box which can detect this. If it detects it, it sets off a chain reaction which ends with the release of poisenous gas in the box.
This is meant to show the absurdity of quantum physics, since the Copanhagen Interpretation states that the atom is in a state of superposition until it is observed, and hence the cat is also in a state of superposition. It is dead and alive. Absurd.
The new interpration is similar to the Wheeler-Feynman absorber theory, which states that electronic resistance is due to "advanced waves" interacting with it. Advanced meaning waves that are travelling in the past direction. "Retarded" is used to describe the waves travelling in the future. These advanced waves are predicted by solving Maxwell's equations, which give two solutions. Well, Shrodinger's equations are the same way (the extended version of the equation, since it seems many books don't teach it this way).
So using this as our guide, the initial probability wave is travelling into the future, with the cat. When the wave is observed, a signal is sent back through time. This wave constructively interferes with the original retarded wave, and this collapses the wave function. So the cat was either dead or alive the whole time, no superposition.
This also is a convenient way to interpret nonlocality. It's not that there is instantaneous communication going on. The communication takes time, but one of the signals is retarded and the other advanced. These cancel out from our perspective (observing on point in time), and give rise to the instantaneous phenomena.
You may of noticed that this has echoes of Einstein's block time, and has implications about free will since the future is affected the past. Gribbons tries and reconciles the two at the end, but I'm not yet decided whether it is satisfactory.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Peeper, posted 01-05-2005 2:18 PM Peeper has replied

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