Christian Denominations - Heaven and Hell

Well, to be a Christian, you have to believe in the conditions outlined in the Creed. But that has nothing to do, IMHO, with salvation. That's something different and again, IMHO, has little to do with beliefs.I covered a lot of this in the thread Message 1.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Actually, no you haven't. What you've done is quote mine a small piece from John while ignoring the rest of the message. That's a classic tactic of the Exclusionist Christian sects. It's like John 3 that they also constantly quote out of context.Go back and read John 14 again. It is not about belief, but works. It's once again the same story, by your actions you will be known.Loving Jesus is not based on what you believe, not based on what you profess, it's based on what you do. Look at John 14:15. Again, he is saying, as is repeated throughout the NT, it's what you do that will count.Now a belief in Jesus IS necessary to be a Christian. But not for salvation.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Back up what you say. Bring on your referenced Biblical quotes and let's examine them. So far you have produced none.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Where be it Mike. We need more than "There be Dragons".You are being asked formally to back up your statements so they can be verified.Please provide the referenced quotes. Mike, Blowing Smoke is making unsupported assertions. It is a comment on the content of your messages.HOWEVER, your sub-title comes very close to a personal attack. While I may criticize your messages, I do not attack you. Such behavior is both against forum policy and childish in the extreme.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Bare UNSUPPORTED assertions Mike. You are again asked to back up your assertions. Yes and I have backed up my assertion with referenced quotes from the Bible to support my statement. Please document where I have done that. Bare assertion. Please provide support for that assertion. I showed where the Bible seems to say that. And supported it with referenced sections.It's time you did the same Mike. Nope, I'm a Christian. What? Who? Your point? What does that have to do with the thread?

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Well, Mike, now we can discuss them. Let's start with your example: because this is so often quote mined and the full meaning is lost.First look at the next verse. What does it say?

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

So Mike, take a break. But there is still a question pending. What does the next line say? And once we get that settled we can work through the whole of John 14 to try to determine what it does say. What do you call taking one line out of context?Run off if you wish, or rest and come back another day. The rest of John 14 will still be waiting.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

But you are being Exclusionary. You're saying that a few are in, most are out. Sounds interesting to explore. Shall we proceed?As you has shown, John was from the Hellenisation period of Christianity, when so many of the older Greek Mythos aspects were written in.But in this case (and many others) we do not have to rely solely on single word interpretations.For now, let's stick with John. I'll get around to Pauline Theology later.Look at John 14:10-15. Throughout that section Jesus is talking about actions, works. It ends, in 15 with him saying Keep my Commandments.And what are those? Why the two Great Commandments. Love God and Love others as you love yourself.He reinforces that in 21: So loving him is action, works.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Let's get through John and then we can move on to other supporting positions. Can we return to John?

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

We have not yet finished John 14, much less John. You've stated an opinion, but that is all that it is. You are still also simply taking sections out of context. The Bible clearly and definitely says time and time again that salvation is through WORKS, through actions. Okay, let's look at Matthew 25. See, one of the great things about the Bible is that it can be used to support ANY position. This is particularly true when pulling individual lines from the books as you have been doing.John 14, if you take the whole chapter, says and describes works, and they are not only within the capabilities of just plain folk, they were expected of them. If you are unwilling to look beyond your little quote out of context efforts, that's fine. But it leaves you with a sad little exclusionary faith and I believe misses the beauty and promise of Christianity.The promise of salvation is there for all, believer and non-believer, atheist and Christian, Jew and Muslim, Buddhist or Hindu. It's not difficult, it's not hard, just Love.It's sad. Whenever I run into one of you and try to get you to read beyond the single line you select, you dart off to some other quote mine area. Only a few times have I found one of you willing to look beyond the infomercial, to actually read the Bible.Sad.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Again, you simply stop when you want, please continue reading.Matthew 25: Behavior, not words, not belief, not profession but behavior.Now I know you believe in an exclusionary salvation, one where only the Christian, the professing, Bible thumping Christian is admitted. That's fine. It's your belief.But I do not. Christ died for all mankind, not Christians. Heaven is, and I believe I can support this position Biblically as well as logically, earned through behavior.

was it Christians? or mankind?

Sure. Even if he doesn't know that it is GOD he is loving.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

For Christians, of course. But the bigger issue is knowing the Father.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Well, you are free to debate. I will tell you and if you will check, what I really prefer is discussion. I'm not trying to change your belief, but rather I'm trying to explain my position. Since you have thrown a great pile of spaghetti on the wall to see what sticks, let me try answering your "critical" questions as I see them. You try to help others. Not for gain, not as a condition of salvation, but because that it the charge from Jesus. You stop the car to carry a tutle across the busy highway. You help a short person reach products on the top shelf. You help the person infront or behind you unload their shopping cart at the store. When talking to kids you listen to what they say and get down to their level. You take the time to talk to elders, and to listen to their tales.It's simple. Through what you do, not what you say. Do the things listed above.It's simple. The first thing is to actually act like the sheep. Very, very few do.This is a very important part and IMHO, gets to the heart of what I think is the great misunderstanding of the issue of WORKS. It's very likely that the GOATS did good works. They are honestly surprised by the charge leveled at them. You get nowhere doing WORKS as a condition or purchase price for salvation. You can't buy your way in.But you also cannot get in without works.The difference is in the purpose of the works. The message of the Bible, of Jesus, is that each of us really need to try to do what's right, because that is what needs to be done. Just do it. Help others.It's really that simple. Great question and very, very important.The thing to remember is that the gift was freely given. Sins are forgiven. Everyones sins, Christian or Jew, Muslim or Hindu, Atheist or Agnostic. It's a done deal.So what's the catch?The catch is you're asked to live by the Two Great Commandments.Love GOD...and the two parter (note the second part is as important as the first)love others as you love yourself.And you will still never appear perfect before GOD. Don't worry though, like most parents he understands that. Your not perfect, just forgiven. Get serious. There are no smear attacks. I try to stick to content, not personalities.But a religion that says you must profess is exclusionary. And IMHO opinion, that's wrong. And the things I find reading the Bible over the last 50 years or more have said just that. It's not what you profess, it's what you do.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion