Christian Denominations - Heaven and Hell

For a Christian today, works is a proof of salvation, but not a prerequisite. If an atheist flew to India tomorrow and dedicated their life heklping tsunami victims get back on theor feet, it would be a commendable life choice. This person would learn many things about human suffering, dignity, and the ability of a character to renew their purpose and focus in life. By the same token, a fat sassy Southern Baptist may have been in church (chuch) all their lives and been baptized, blood bought, and sanctified. They should not qualify for Heaven by being lazy and selfish, right?
A Christian is saved, however, through no effort of their own except TRUST. It is clearly the gospel that saves us. But what exactly is the gospel? That too is revealed to us in the Bible. It is found in 1 Cor. 15:1-4: The gospel is defined as the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus for our sins. Another verse: The washing of rebirth can only be that washing of the blood of Christ that cleanses us. It is not the symbol that saves, but the reality. The reality is the blood of Christ. There is no contradictions. We are saved by Grace alone, by Faith alone, but Works will follow if one is truly a believer. Just as it is impossible for a Mother to not straighten your tie when she sees it askew, it is impossiblpe for a true believer to pass up good works and not do them. The point is that it is not the works that justify the believer. Here is more on the topic:
http://www.carm.org/questions/faithorworks.htmThis message has been edited by Phatboy, 12-30-2004 07:25 AM

It is not necessary as a Christian to perform good works IN ORDER to please God because, first of all, our good deeds are but filthy rags to God (Isaiah 64:6) and, most important, we are made righteous in the eyes of God by the finished work of Jesus on the cross (Rom. 5). Actions DO speak louder than words, and a person who is saved WILL do good works. A husband does not have to buy his wife flowers and pretty things to prove that he loves her. He will buy them IF he loves her, however. (and if she likes them) By the same token, a believer does not have to do good works for God to earn his salvation. A Jewish man under the law who met his Messiah would be expected to do good works, as that was under that law.Salvation by Grace was mentioned by Paul, the apostle to the Gentiles..The Gospels are the Gospel of the Kingdom, where works was a necessity for a Jewish believer. The Gospel of Paul was the Gospel of the Mystery, addressed to the called out church from among the Gentiles. Without going into that right now, I will say that one cannot stick to their own ideas of who God is and show total love, because God IS love. If an atheist, Buddhist, or other non-christian were to do the works totally, lovingly, and perfectly, they WOULD meet Jesus. God is not our own internal idea and ideal. God is more than we are. To accept Him requires denying yourself. That is why exclusionism cannot apply here.To do good works and yet stubbornly cling to your own ideas about truth and love implies that you are trying to BE God in your own heart. If you were not, you would become a believer and be in heaven by default. Exclusionism sounds mean and arrogant, but it involves an absolute Spirit, and it HAS to be right! Love is the answer, as Jar says. There is no other source for love except God incarnate. We must lose our lives in order to find it. We will never attain the level, but by denying our own power, the level will come to us.This message has been edited by Phatboy, 12-30-2004 07:33 AM

It was mankind. The sheep and goats parable is being told to Jewish believers who expected a millinial kingdom. This judgement WILL happen, and all people will be judged by what they know. Their heart. This happens after the church, the body of Christ, is taken up. There will probably be quite a few left, (in my belief) so you are right that works will be the standard in the last times. Nations will not be punished for believing in their gods, but they will be judged by what they know.

Do you think that the natural unregenerated man CAN love God with a whole heart? It takes Grace to initiate this action. Also remember, He is addressing Jews.Wiz! You say: So lets run with this concept! By Jesus definition, one must lose their life,(ego, self determinism, etc) in order to gain salvation. If an atheist was pouring themselves into a humanitarian cause with every ounce of their being, all in the name of humanistic love...love for humanity, bettering future children, saving the whales, even...and they were to the point of all self denial, I believe that if they were to die at that point as an atheist, Jesus would be there to hug them and give them a choice of acceptance/rejection. Atheists do not reject Jesus so much as they reject a selfish and human church who has done nothing to encourage them. They reject religion because intellectualism gives more of a certainty to their future. There are many reasons, as there are many atheists. Issues of salvation, however, are Gods and Gods alone to judge. Ultimately.This message has been edited by Phatboy, 12-30-2004 07:47 AM

OK.. I will agree with you there, but do you agree that IF Jesus is who He is, that once they meet Him, they would never refuse Him anyway?(see my post 33)This message has been edited by Phatboy, 12-30-2004 07:49 AM

Mike, when someone asks you if you are a Christian because you fear death, ask them if they refuse to surrender their will to God because they fear death of Ego?Exclusionist:== You must accept God the way that it is written in my book.Atheist:== I do not have to accept you or your book. All I have to accept is the unctions within my heart.Exclusionist== My book says that Jesus says that No man comes to Him unless the Spirit draws him. So your unctions will be from the Spirit.Atheist== I can find my way without YOU, however.Exclusionist== But you will never find your way without Him.Atheist: How do you know which way I am talking about?Exclusionist: How many ways are there?Atheist: Many ways. As many as there are souls.Exclusionist: Many ways to where?

So when Jesus says: Seems kinda strange. So it seems as if Jesus is involved in the equation one way or another. I think that the Father is the goal, but the Son makes it a human thing.This message has been edited by Phatboy, 12-30-2004 08:27 AM

Interesting point. The early church lkeaders proclaimed that God was the authority, took it upon themselves to rule the people, and became corrupt. The humanists proclaimed man as the pinnacle of achievement, tried to achieve immortality through art, and stood apart. Jesus, although God in human form, took upon Himself NO reputation. The reputation that He had was used by the church to maintain power.

You always ask this, and I suppose that from your standpoint it makes perfect sense. to me, God is an absolute, and there is one of him. Naturally, humans have invented many gods, and from your standpoint there is no difference. True enough, and worth pondering. But to admit that we are a speck of a speck of a fleas ticks speck in the universe and then assume to know so much about it all the while denying previous human religious speculations is NOT being humble, either. We have simply made a god out of logic and science.

Paul believed that what he wrote was not of his own interpretation apart from the spirit. Most Christians who believe in scripture as God inspired would agree with him.

Ok. Not every word is God inspired. Taken as it is, 1 Corinthians 7 shows Paul giving wisdom. Some, he writes as inspired from God. The rest, he tells us is his own wisdom. Taken as a whole, this passage shows that Paul is honest enough to inform us of the difference. The passage is still scripture. You are right, though. The Bible wins. Paul did not think that everything he said was from God.

Interesting points, Arach. You are an intellectual and a scholar of Biblical interpretation. Check out this book briefly:
http://www.bijbel.nl/things_that_differ.htm The author believes in the Bible as the source of proving its own wisdom. If we disagree, we must conclude human wisdom as the source of final interpretation.
Now, given this, what is your source for discernment of spiritual matters?Arach, give this book some attention and answer this:
1. inspiration is much fuzzier, innacurate, and prone to human error than the way in which fundamental christianity is using it, and it really means, you know, inspiration in an artistic sense. So is the author of this book on to something, or is his opinion error prone. If so, how?This message has been edited by Phatboy, 01-03-2005 06:44 AM