According to the Bible, mankind doesn't have an immortal soul.

To be true followers of Christ, a religion's teachings must be in harmony with the Bible. All Christian religions claim their teachings are based on the Bible, but a close look reveals blatant contradictions. The most common conflict with scripture is on the condition of the dead. The Bible states that the dead are unconscious, that death is a state of nonlife or nonexistence. "But for anyone who is counted among the living there is still hope: remember, a live dog is better than a dead lion. True the living know that they will die; but the dead know nothing." Ecclesiastes 9:4-5 (REB)Basically God's word states that when you die, you die, your one hope is a resurrection from the dead. The idea that part of us lives on after death is not taught in the Bible, but was a part of ancient pagan religions and it is from this non-Biblical source that this belief came from. The Bible clearly states that the soul or life, of a person dies at that person's death. "Human beings and beasts share one and the same fate: death comes to both alike. They all draw the same breath. Man has no advantage over beast, for everything in futility. All go to the same place: all came from the dust, and to the dust all return." Ecclesiastes 3:19-20 (REB) "The Lord God formed a human being from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, so that he became a living creature." Genesis 2:7 (REB) "Dust your are, to dust you will return," Genesis 3:19 (REB) That is the meaning of the expression "from to dust to dust," the first man Adam has created from the dust of the earth and when we die we go back to the dust. Adam didn't exist before God created him, so when he returned to the "dust," he returned to his earlier state, nonexistence. According to the Bible righteous people who die, enter a state of nonexistence until they are later resurrected. Since they are not aware of anything while in this state, they are sometimes referred to as being asleep."Everyone was weeping and lamenting for her. He said, 'stop your weeping; she is not dead: she is asleep'; and they laughed at him, well knowing that she was dead." Luke 8:52-53 (REB) The young girl was sleeping in death until Jesus resurrected her, she was not experiencing anything nor had she gone anywhere. The Bible confirms this by the fact that Christ died for our sins and he described himself as the resurrection and the life. It is only because of his sacrifice that we have the hope of a resurrection. Those who have died will rest until Christ resurrects them to life. The apostle Peter preached that, "For it was not David who went up to heaven;" Acts 2:34 (REB) and the apostle Paul preached the same. "As for David, when he died and was gathered to his fathers, and suffered corruption; but the one whom God raised up did not suffer corruption." Acts 14:36-37 (REB) King David, a righteous man, did not go to heaven when he died, but is sleeping in death awaiting a resurrection. This is why 1 Corinthians 15:20 states: "But the truth is, Christ was raised to life-the firstfruits of the harvest of the dead." (REB) The firstfruits are first, Jesus Christ was the first one resurrected to heavenly life. No one was raised to heavenly life before Christ, he was first and it was only by his sacrifice that a resurrection to heaven is possible. Hence, none of the righteous people who died before Christ opened the way, went to heaven. All of these people and many others are awaiting a future resurrection on earth when the righteous and unrighteous are to be raised. The fact that many people, including all those who died before Christ, will receive a earthly resurrection makes sense when you consider the fact baptism and being born again with holy spirit is required of all those going to heaven. "Jesus answered, 'In very truth I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he has been born again.' . . . Jesus answered, 'In very truth I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born from water and spirit.'" John 3:3-5 (REB) Lacking being born again, none of the pre Christian faithful servants of God are going to heaven. They looked forward to a resurrection in a paradise earth. That is why at Luke 23:43 Jesus tells the man hanging next to him, "Truly I tell you: today you will be with me in Paradise." What Jesus was telling him is that once his kingdom began to rule over the earth, Jesus would raise him to life in the restored paradise conditions his rule will bring to the earth.The meek inherit the earth, but only those born again by water (being baptized as a follower of Christ) and by spirit (chosen by anointing with holy spirit to rule with Christ in his kingdom) will receive a heavenly resurrection. All other resurrections are earthly resurrections that will take place during Christ's thousand year rein. "Martha said to Jesus, 'Lord, if you had been here my brother would not have died. Even now I know that God will grant you whatever you ask of him.' Jesus said, 'Your brother will rise again.' 'I know that he will rise again', said Martha, 'at the resurrection on the last day.' John 11:21-24 (REB) Martha was a disciple or follower of Jesus and had been taught personally by him. She knew about the resurrection and when it would take place. She also knew her brother would sleep in death until that day. Jesus then went on to resurrect her brother Lazarus demonstrating that his father had given him the authority to raise the dead. There are many interesting things recorded in the Bible that we can learn much from considering. We can also learn much from the things that are not recorded and the reasons why they do not appear in the scriptures. For example, once Lazarus was raised, we fail to find his report of what happened to him. If he had experienced anything worth reporting, it would be in the Bible for us to read about and strengthen our faith. But instead we fail to find a single word from Lazarus saying anything about the experience of death. All we have are Jesus' words that Lazarus was asleep and he was going to wake him up. From Lazarus' viewpoint, one moment he was dying and the next he woke up covered in bandages. There was nothing in between, he has asleep in death and didn't experience anything, which is why he had nothing to report.God is just and he is fair, all men have the opportunity of gaining everlasting life, Christ died for everyone. Considering God's perfect justice and wisdom, the doctrine of immortality of the soul makes no sense. For what would be the fate of the many who lived before Christ was even born and who never had the opportunity to hear the good news? Many did not even worship the True God, they lived in ignorance so when they died, if the soul was immortal, where did they go? Under the man made doctrine of the immortality of the soul, this is a impossible question to answer and has resulted in some truly strange answers which have nothing to do with God's word. However, if we accept the Bible's teaching that the soul dies when we die, the answer is simple. Those who never had the chance to hear the good news are asleep in death and will receive a earthly resurrection at the last day. They will then be taught the good news and those who accept it will get to inherit the earth as part of the meek, those who reject it go back to the dust.-As per administration instructions, the above material has been published in my book "Solving the Mystery of the Biblical Flood" and was part of a post in another thread. (it completely slipped my mind that I had posted this before, but maybe it will get more response in its own thread.) My reason in posting is to engage in a discussion on the topic of whether or not man has an immortal soul. My argument above is that the Bible teaches that we do not. I would like to discuss the scriptures cited and reasoning used in my post.Sincerely Yours; Wm S. AndersonThis message has been edited by wmscott, 02-16-2005 16:57 AM

Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

Bump. (Needed to do this as a work arround for a minor bug in the board software)

I don't see that what you provided truly addresses the immortal soul.

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The Bible states that the dead are unconscious, that death is a state of nonlife or nonexistence. "But for anyone who is counted among the living there is still hope: remember, a live dog is better than a dead lion. True the living know that they will die; but the dead know nothing." Ecclesiastes 9:4-5 (REB)

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Ecclesiastes was supposedly written by Solomon. (1:1 The words of the teacher, son of David, king in Jerusalem) Solomon is telling us what he physically sees "under the sun." So of course animals and men die the same visually. If a soul or spirit goes elsewhere, it is not visible to mankind. The conclusion at the end of Ecclesiastes sums up the book. Solomon is dealing with temporal life not eternal life.

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The young girl was sleeping in death until Jesus resurrected her

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While I agree that sometimes the dead are referred to as being "asleep" by early writers, in the verse you shared, Jesus clearly states that she is not dead. IMO, you are reading more into the words than are there.

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Jesus Christ was the first one resurrected to heavenly life.

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Where did Moses and Elijah come from in Mark 9:4?

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The meek inherit the earth, but only those born again by water (being baptized as a follower of Christ) and by spirit (chosen by anointing with holy spirit to rule with Christ in his kingdom) will receive a heavenly resurrection.

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The born again scenerio is only mentioned in John and 1 Peter, which are both late writings. The Jews were born again by water even before Jesus.The two types of resurrection you speak of aren't really as clearly stated as you make it seem.IMO, you've read later tradition into what was written to get your conclusion.

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A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

Well, the Bible never really mentions anything regarding an immortal soul. Anywhere that the subject of life/death and the soul is mentioned, it says things like:Genesis 2:7-'...and man became a living soul.'Genesis 3:19-'...for dust you are, and to dust you shall return.Eze 18:4-'...the soul that sinneth, it shall die.'This would seem to give the clear impression that man is a soul, rather than having one. It's makes no mention of a spiritual existence beyond death.The Bible does state later that everlasting life is possible, but is not due to the existence of an immortal soul.

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the Bible never really mentions anything regarding an immortal soul

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I agree that the OT writers didn't present the soul as immortal.My contention with the OP is that Ecclesiastes is Solomon's human view of life around him. He can only view physical death. He can't vouch for what happens after death. Therefore using that writing to support that there is no immortal soul isn't accurate.The Hebrew word "nephesh" means: soul, self, life, creature, person, appetite, mind, living being, desire, emotion, passion.It is used concerning the living creatures in Genesis, living beings, living soul etc.

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The Bible does state later that everlasting life is possible

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So given what we agreed above, let's turn to the NT and life. The Greek word for life here is "zoe" which means: life, the state of one who is possessed of vitality or is animate, every living soul.Does this mean the NT speaks of an eternal soul?How do you consider everlasting life to be different from an eternal soul?

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A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

How do you consider everlasting life to be different from an eternal soul?

Not to argue semantics here, but by everlasting life, I was referring to everlasting physical life on earth, as opposed to an eternal spiritual existence. The mention of everlasting life as something to be gained or given to us(John 17:3, John 3:16) would seem to clash with the idea of us having an immortal soul that continues to exist after physical death.

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I was referring to everlasting physical life on earth

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Great! We are sticking with the physical in both cases.The OT doesn't mention any form of eternal physical life for mankind.Now the prayer that Jesus supposedly prayed to God in John 17:3 doesn't describe eternal life as an eternal physical existence. Know = to learn to know, come to know, get a knowledge of, perceive, feelBy this definition, eternal life/soul, is not about living forever on earth.

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A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

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This would seem to give the clear impression that man is a soul, rather than having one. It's makes no mention of a spiritual existence beyond death.

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You are correct. That is exactly what it means. Spiritism and fluffy spirits are a dangerous heresy that have their existence in pagan rites. No Christian should participate.
===============God only has immortality.I Tim. 1:17, "Now unto the King eternal, IMMORTAL, invisible, the only wise God�"God is immortal, Joe Schmoe isn't.Paul in Romans Rom. 2:7, "To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for immortality, eternal life"Why look for something you already have?God only has immortality, we are looking for it, therefore, we do not have it.I Tim. 6:15-16, "which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of Kings, and Lord of Lords; who ONLY hath immortality�"God's children are looking for immortality.I Cor. 15:53-54, "For this corruptible (body that's dies) must puy on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, death is swallowed up in victory."Death happens when life is over.Thank you for your words, I have not read all accounts and hope that this is not redundant.
Maranatha!

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"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."
Hey, Albert, I agree!

Dear Purpledawn; In order for you line of thinking to be correct, Solomon would have to be restricting his description to what could be seen by human eyes without any references to things we can not see directly. But the very verse you are referring to, contradicts your argument by stating, (Ecclesiastes 9:5) "as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all, " which is a clear statement that the dead are unconscious. Solomon is not unique in teaching this since this same point is stated in a number of Bible books.(Psalm 146:4) "His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground; In that day his thoughts do perish."(Isaiah 38:18) "For it is not Sheol that can laud you; death itself cannot praise you. Those going down into the pit cannot look hopefully to your trueness."In the Bible the dead are unconscious in the 'sleep' of death. They are unable to praise God or even think. The reason for this is, that in the Bible, the soul dies at death. (Jg 16:30;Jos 2:13; Ps 33:19; 56:13; 116:8; Eze 18:4,Jas 5:20, 20; Re 16:3,) This is why we need the resurrection. (Luke 8:53) "they began to laugh at him scornfully, because they knew she had died." She was dead, Jesus raised her from the dead, what he meant was that she was not permanently dead. To Jesus, death is but a sleep from which he has the ability to awaken people from. They were not really there, Jesus stated that it was a vision. (Matthew 17:9) "the vision" Moses and Elijah were not present, their representations appeared in the vision, but they were not literally present. And just for the sake of argument, even if they had been there in person, it would not require that their souls were immortal, they could have been briefly raised for the vision and then returned to the grave till the coming resurrection. (sort of like waking up in the middle of the night)Do you wish to argue that Jesus was not the first one resurrected to heaven? You do realize that such an argument would imply that Jesus' sacrifice was not necessary for humans to go to heaven, which would under mine the very foundation of Christianity. Do you wish to add John and 1Peter to the list of books that you reject? Or if you do accept them as inspired, you will have to rephrase you argument. Being born again is the basis of the Christian hope, if you are rejecting being born again, you are rejecting Christ. Far from merely being mentioned by two writers, it is a central theme of the NT and is referred to throughout the NT. Here John refers to being 'born again' as "born from God' (1 John 3:9) "born from God" and Peter calls it "a new birth." (1 Peter 1:23) and Paul calls it a 'new creation'. (2 Corinthians 5:17) "Consequently if anyone is in union with Christ, he is a new creation;" Here at Romans 6:4 Paul describes how we are born again through baptism and how being submerged in the water symbolises being buried in death, and how coming up out of the water is like a resurrection or being born again to a new life, one dedicated to God. "Therefore we were buried with him through our baptism into his death, in order that, just as Christ was raised up from the dead through the glory of the Father, we also should likewise walk in a newness of life." And as Jesus stated in John, being born again is required of all those who go to heaven, the person Jesus was addressing was a Jew and he still needed to be born again in order to go to heaven. (Revelation 20:5-6) "This is the first resurrection . Happy and holy is anyone having part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no authority, but they will be priests of God and of the Christ, and will rule as kings with him for the thousand years."If there is a first resurrection, there is a second resurrection, or there would only be 'A' or 'the" resurrection. As it states in the above verse, the first resurrection is to heavenly life where those raised rule as kings with Christ in his kingdom. Jesus at the last supper made a covenant with his followers that some of them would rule with him in his kingdom and would judge the tribes of Israel. (Luke 22:29-30) "I make a covenant with YOU, just as my Father has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom, that YOU may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones to judge the twelve tribes of Israel."The second resurrection is for all those not covered by the covenant for the first resurrection. Those who are raised in the second resurrection do not need to be born again, or even be followers of Jesus or Jehovah God. (Acts 24:14-15) "as I believe all the things set forth in the Law and written in the Prophets; and I have hope toward God, which hope these [men] themselves also entertain, that there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous." Paul was saying that like the Jews believed, he believed also, that there was going to be a resurrection of righteous and unrighteous persons. This is the second resurrection, and it is an earthly resurrection and not a heavenly one. That is how the meek will inherit the earth, those who don't meet the requirements of being born again for a heavenly resurrection, have the hope of receiving a earthly resurrection durning the thousand year rule of the Messianic kingdom. (Psalm 37:11) "But the meek ones themselves will possess the earth,"Since you wish to defend the doctrine of the immortality of the soul, could you answer the question I raised in the last paragraph of my opening post?God is just and he is fair, all men have the opportunity of gaining everlasting life, Christ died for everyone. Considering God's perfect justice and wisdom, the doctrine of immortality of the soul makes no sense. For what would be the fate of the many who lived before Christ was even born and who never had the opportunity to hear the good news? Many did not even worship the True God, they lived in ignorance so when they died, if the soul was immortal, where did they go?Sincerely Yours; Wm Scott Anderson

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My argument above is that the Bible teaches that we do not. I would like to discuss the scriptures cited and reasoning used in my post.

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You claimed that you wanted to discuss the scriptures you cited and your reasoning, not what I believe.

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But the very verse you are referring to, contradicts your argument by stating, (Ecclesiastes 9:5) "as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all, " which is a clear statement that the dead are unconscious.

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Conscious and unconscious are terms for the living. Solomon's statement is still just his physical observation of death. Solomon said that the dead "know nothing." A pretty good guess since "dust" can't think!I agree that at death we cease to exist and return to dust (unless preserved of course), but your "proof" is only from a human point of view. All the idioms concerning death in the OT mean dead, no brain activity, cease to exist.Living man cannot attest to what happens after death. Do you have any verses in the OT where God describes death or what happens after death or that he wishes to resurrect humans?

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(Luke 8:53) "they began to laugh at him scornfully, because they knew she had died."

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Either you believe what Jesus says is true or not. He said she was NOT dead. Either you always believe that what Jesus supposedly says is right or you don't. You lose credibility when you pick and choose.

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The meek inherit the earth, but only those born again by water (being baptized as a follower of Christ) and by spirit (chosen by anointing with holy spirit to rule with Christ in his kingdom) will receive a heavenly resurrection.

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My point is that the born again ritual wasn't a new teaching started by Jesus. It really has nothing to do with whether the soul is immortal or not. Mikvah

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Since you wish to defend the doctrine of the immortality of the soul, could you answer the question I raised in the last paragraph of my opening post?

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I am not defending it, but apparently I wasn't clear that I am addressing your reasoning. I apologize for my lack of clarity.Clarify what you consider the soul to be:
The Hebrew word "nephesh" means: soul, self, life, creature, person, appetite, mind, living being, desire, emotion, passion.
It is used concerning the living creatures in Genesis, living beings, living soul etc.Clarify immortal, eternal, everlasting:
Do you consider them different or interchangeable?

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A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

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Clarify immortal, eternal, everlasting:
Do you consider them different or interchangeable?

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If the subject is immortal soul, then there is no such thing.
Since the bible says that God only has immortality.
Actually, nothing else needs to be said, it cannot be made clearer.
Spiritism is forbidden in scripture, see the story of Saul and the witch of Endor, for example.I Tim. 6:15-16, "which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of Kings, and Lord of Lords; who ONLY hath immortality"

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"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."
Hey, Albert, I agree!

I want to know if he truly means the word "immortal."Immortal - Gr = uncorrupted, not liable to corruption or decay, imperishable.Eternal/Everlasting (owlam) - Hbrw = long duration, antiquity, futurity, for ever, ever, everlasting, evermore, perpetual, old, ancient, worldEternal/Everlasting (aionios) - Gr = without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will bePlus I need to know what he considers the soul itself to be.

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A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

Dear Purpledawn; That is what this thread is about. Now when you disagree and say that I am wrong, you need to support your counter argument, if you fail to do so, your argument fails. So if you wish to argue that I am wrong about the soul being mortal, that it is actually immortal, you will need to scripturally prove that the soul is immortal. So far you haven't offered any scriptural support for your argument, without any biblical backing you might as well concede that the Bible does indeed teach that the soul is mortal. Solomon wrote under divine inspiration and when he said the that dead were unconscious, he was referring to the person as a whole, he wasn't just referring to the physical body minus a 'soul' as you seem to be thinking. As I posted before, Solomon was not unique on the dead being unconscious. You failed to comment or offer an alternative interpretation for the verses I cited which clearly shows that the soul dies at death.
(Psalm 146:4) "His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground; In that day his thoughts do perish."(Isaiah 38:18) "For it is not Sheol that can laud you; death itself cannot praise you. Those going down into the pit cannot look hopefully to your trueness."Psalm 146:4 is very clear with the statement about death "In that day his thoughts do perish" which clearly proves that when you die, you die. If your thoughts 'perish' when you die, it is scripturally impossible for your mind to survive death as an immortal soul, such a doctrine is in complete conflict with this verse.If that point isn't a clear enough contradiction between the doctrine of immortality of the soul and the Bible, you should have read those scriptures I cited but didn't' quote. (Jg 16:30;Jos 2:13; Ps 33:19; 56:13; 116:8; Eze 18:4,Jas 5:20, 20; Re 16:3,) Eze 18:4 is a good one, "The soul that is sinningit itself will die." That is about as clear of a Biblical rejection of the immortal soul doctrine as you could want, a clear statement that the soul dies. End of argument, the soul dies, or do you wish to go against this clear statement by the word of God? Plus all of the other above verses speak of the soul dying, it is a open and shut case, in the Bible the soul dies. The whole point of the Bible being the word of God is that the human writers wrote under the guidance of God's holy spirit, so what they wrote is from God and is not limited by human perception. I mean you either believe that the Bible is the word of God or you don't.As for descriptions of death, the Biblical viewpoint is that there isn't anything to describe, since as the OT clearly states, that the death are unconscious and 'In that day his thoughts do perish', so in that sense we have a complete description of what death is like.OT references to resurrection; yes there are a number, here are a few. (Hosea 13:14) "From the hand of Sheol I shall redeem them; from death I shall recover them." (Psalm 16:10) "For you will not leave my soul in Sheol." (Psalm 49:15) "God himself will redeem my soul from the hand of Sheol," Sooo, let me get this straight, you are saying that the girl really wasn't dead and Jesus just woke her up from sleeping? That is a dumb position to take since Jesus also referred to Lazarus as also 'sleeping' and when his disciples misunderstood and thought that he was talking about literal sleep, he corrected them and stated that Lazarus had died.
(John 11:11-14) "he said to them: "Lazarus our friend has gone to rest, but I am journeying there to awaken him from sleep." Therefore the disciples said to him: "Lord, if he has gone to rest, he will get well." Jesus had spoken, however, about his death. But they imagined he was speaking about taking rest in sleep. At that time, therefore, Jesus said to them outspokenly: "Lazarus has died,"In light of the above scripture, it is silly on your part to refuse to acknowledge that Jesus' used the term 'sleep' to refer to death. The general concept of being born again was not the point, Jesus was stating a very specific sort of rebirth. (John 3:5) "Unless anyone is born from water and spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." The rebirth your reference referred to, made no mention of what Christ mentioned as being necessary. The Jews did receive a symbolic baptism or rebirth, but notice what it was that they were baptized into. (1 Corinthians 10:1-2) "Now I do not want YOU to be ignorant, brothers, that our forefathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea and all got baptized into Moses by means of the cloud and of the sea;" They were baptised into Moses or the Mosaic law code, which had no power for salvation, it merely made sin manifest and highlighted the need of a ransom sacrifice for sin. (Romans 3:20) "by works of law no flesh will be declared righteous before him, for by law is the accurate knowledge of sin." Jesus Christ was that sacrifice and he fulfilled the law and ended it. (Romans 10:4) "For Christ is the end of the Law, so that everyone exercising faith may have righteousness." (Galatians 3:24-25) "Consequently the Law has become our tutor leading to Christ, that we might be declared righteous due to faith. But now that the faith has arrived, we are no longer under a tutor." The law was not a means of salvation, through it there was no provision for a permanent forgiveness of sins or reconciling with God. Galatians 2:21) "for if righteousness is through law, Christ actually died for nothing." So there is no spiritual value in trying to follow the Mosaic law code, in fact doing so would be rejecting Jesus' sacrifice. (Galatians 5:4) "YOU are parted from Christ, whoever YOU are that try to be declared righteous by means of law;" So in the law there was no provision for the Jews being born again by water and spirit and having a heavenly resurrection. What Jesus taught was a new hope for the Jews, previous to Jesus' new covenant, all the Jews could hope for was an earthly resurrection. The soul is mortal or it is not, if you wish to say that it is not, you are saying that it is immortal. I don't see any other option for you, if you do not wish to defend your position, you have already admitted defeat. For I have to assume that the reason that you will not answer my question is that you can't. A living being animal or human, life. Can also have secondary meanings depending on usage, 'soulful desire' etc. Immortal; cannot die.
Eternal; something that has and will alway exist.
everlasting; something that will always be.The terms have a lot of over lap in meaning, but are not identical in meaning. For example, if something is everlasting, it could have just come into existence, but will always exist from that point on. While eternal has always existed and will always. While immortal also doesn't require a preexistence, just an inability to die from the moment it is given onward.Sincerely Yours; Wm Scott Anderson

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The whole point of the Bible being the word of God is that the human writers wrote under the guidance of God's holy spirit, so what they wrote is from God and is not limited by human perception.

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On this point we disagree. IMO, the writers of the Bible are limited by human perception. So if this hinders or ends our discussion, so be it.

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So if you wish to argue that I am wrong about the soul being mortal, that it is actually immortal, you will need to scripturally prove that the soul is immortal.

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I didn't say you were wrong, I said: I did read all your verses.Soul Clarification:

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A living being animal or human, life.

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I think we agree that the soul is the living being body and all. So when a person dies, is buried, and decays; then all that made him alive or human is gone. Nothing is left.

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Immortal; cannot die.

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Immortal - Gr = uncorrupted, not liable to corruption or decay, imperishable.So the OT writers make no claim that the human body does not die completely and you haven't provided any verses where God stated otherwise. So the concensus is that as far as the OT is concerned no part us continues after death and especially after decay.Agreed or Not?

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OT references to resurrection; yes there are a number, here are a few. (Hosea 13:14)

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Unfortunately this is dealing with a death of a nation and not redemption from a literal grave.Psalms are songs and not really good doctrine supporters.

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Sooo, let me get this straight, you are saying that the girl really wasn't dead and Jesus just woke her up from sleeping? That is a dumb position to take since Jesus also referred to Lazarus as also 'sleeping'

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I didn't say anything, Jesus did. Surely you can see the difference in the statements. We have established that dead is dead. We've also established that an idiom for death is "asleep."In the first case, Jesus did mean that Lazarus was dead, but for the girl he didn't. If he meant she was dead, then he would have been saying that she is not dead but she is dead. Concerning the girl, "asleep" was not an idiom for dead.Do you understand that I agree with you, that the authors of the Bible do not say that humans have an immortal soul?Do you understand that my arguments are showing you the weakness in your presentation?I'm not going to continue into rebirth or resurrection until we get through the "soul" discussion.

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A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.