War On Drugs

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What I wanna know is where you get the idea that just because someone buys a drug, they must be or more likely will be an addict.

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They have to actually take the drug, not just buy it.If that's what you meant, then there is lots of evidence which strongly suggests that a significant segment of the population is quite susceptible to becoming physically addicted to certain substances after a few exposures.Nicotine is highly physically addictive, as is heroin, and cocaine, especially in the form of crack.

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Don't just decriminalize drugs. Legalize, Nationalize and subsidize the manufacture and distribution of all illicit drugs. Give them away for free and on demand.

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If we give them away for free, on demand, what is going to pay for their manufacture?I can't say I want to pay taxes to subsidize the production of heroin. I have known several people who died of heroin overdoses. I've known several others who came to work high all the time (before they were fired) and jeopardized their own and other people's safety, let alone hurt the business.I certainly already pay taxes which subsidize tobacco companies, and I don't think that's OK either. I've seen several people die of smoking related diseases, and my parents are slowly dying, and currently in poor health, all due to smoking.

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Fat is not good for the heart.

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Pedant mode on:Actually, that is inaccurate.It's only saturated fat that is bad for the heart. Poly- and Mono-unsaturated fats such as thoses found in cold water fish, certain nuts, and olive oil are very good for the heart.There is no correlation between overall diatary fat and arterial sclerosis.Pedant mode off.

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Where does the money we currently spend on the War-on-Drugs come from?

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From taxes, of course.

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Does the crime related to drug aquisition increase costs to you?

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Does the crime relted to the organization currently marketing drugs, the corporate overhead have a cost you help pay for?

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Yes, and yes.However, I still do not want to subsidize, through my tax money, the easy distribution of heroin to anyone.It is harmful. It is highly addictive. It often leads to accidental overdose. It leads to those addicted people wanting to do nothing but get high and stay high all the time. They don't want to go to work, they don't want to eat, they don't want to take care of their children, etc.Have you ever been around heroin addicts, or talked to any recovered addicts?

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True drug addiction is ugly, but short of removing all drugs and the plants and chemicals they come from off planet, we will always have drug addicts.

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That is true.

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It comes down to a cost benifit analysis. Is it better to cut down drug and gang violence by making drugs cheap and legal which may increase the number of drug addicts or do we fight a war on drugs that costs trillions, lose anyway, put millions of non-violent people into prison, have hundres of violent durg related shootings and still have large numbers of drug addicts?

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I don't think that these are the only two choices, not by a long shot.We can keep them illegal to produce and distribute, and have high penalties for those people, but make posession a misdemeanor, not a felony.We could make high-quality drug treatment programs for addicts free and easy to get into.

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I would prefer less violence and less money spent on pointless wars on drugs myself. People will always use drugs.

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Yes, but the point is not to crimilalize the use of them, just the production and sale. Make rehab easy and free. Spend WAY more on prevention, which includes economic and educational opportunity for those groups most at risk to taking drugs.I just don't see where making crack cocaine and heroin free and available to all is going to make crack and heroin addicts want to do anything other than get and stay high 24 hours a day.

Many of those seem to lead perfectly normal lifes that are no different to that of their neighbours.

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Heroin addiction (as are many things) is very distructive

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I'm not sure that's true - recently in the UK there has been much interest in long-term professional heroin addicts (those who can afford their fix without having to steal). Many of those seem to lead perfectly normal lifes that are no different to that of their neighbours.

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Perfectly normal?I've been at work with people who were high on coke, or high on heroin.They do not behave normally, and they do their jobs much, much, much better now that they are sober.

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Yes on both counts and you can include other drugs as well. Now that that is out of the way, let's try to go on.

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So, what did they say about how much they cared about taking care of their chilren, achieving at work or school, or about anything else compared to how much they cared about getting and staying high?

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Agreed. Heroin addiction (as are many things) is very distructive. That's a given. Problems can range from mild to severe. Far too little is done to provide support and medical care and alternatives.

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And how is providing as much heroin and crack cocaine to anyone who wants it, for free, going to help anyone recover from addiction?

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Now back to the question of giving away drugs for free.

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If we gave away drugs for free, what effect would it have on those currently in the Drug Trade, the pushers, the cartels, the Drug Lords, the street thugs?

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It would put them all out of business.What effect would having all drugs free and plentiful have on neglect of children, frequency of unwanted pregnancy, date rape, domestic violence, regular old violence, worker productivity, the ability to keep a job, and petty crime?(the reason I mention petty crime is because people who just want to be high all the time are not reliable, nor do they think properly. They therefore cannot keep a job and pay their living expenses. Thus, they will become homeless.)Why do you think that there is no middle ground whatsoever between the "war on drugs" and a total free for all with all drugs available for free to everyone.Let me ask you a few questions.Should GHB, the date rape drug, be available to anyone who wants it?

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Why? Everyone I know who's taken Cocaine has been fine with it.

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Several of the people I've known who have taken cocaine have been obnoxious assholes while on it.

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Why are we throwing addicts into jail (in the US)? How does this help them? We need to shift our view away from punishing drug use to TREATING drug use.

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Couldn't agree more.

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Yup!

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So you would be OK with supplying people with the means to easily commit rape, with no questions asked, as much as they wanted?

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How is charging for it and pushing folk into criminalization going to help anyone recover from addiction?

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I support the decriminalization of drug USE, but not the production or distribution of them.Anyway, you didn't answer my question.How is having free, legal, widespread availability of crack and heroin going to help anyone recover from addiction?I see how unsuccessful recovering from nicotine addiction is for many people at my workplace. There are many smokers there, and I know at least 5 people who had quit smoking years ago who started smoking again, and are addicted again, because there is an entire culture of cigarette smoking as a way to take a break at my workplace and in our greater culture. There have even been some people in their mid twenties who started to smoke because they were around it so much and it was part of "taking a break" and "dealing with stress".

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Certainly wouldn't make it any worse but will likely improve things greatly. For example, right now almost 100% of income in many addicts households goes to finding drugs. If they were free that portion of the income could be spent on other things such as food.

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If they got all the drugs they wanted, they would likely spend all of their time getting and staying high, instead of working a job and earning a living.If, as you stated, the only reason for some people have to go to work is to make money to be able to buy drugs, and they then don't need money to get the drugs, then they don't have to waste time working. They can just be high all the time for free.

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A second issue is effort. Again, under the present system any time not high is used trying to find the resources and connection for the next high. If the drugs were free and readily available that energy and time could be used in other ways, like changing diapers.

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...or getting and staying high all the time instead of just some of the time.

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It's not an issue of middle ground.

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Of course it is.I agree that criminalizing drug use is stupid.I think it is just as stupid to hand out heroin and crack cocaine to anyone who wants them as if they were cheese samples at the grocery store.

Jar, you avoided most of my post.Why do you think that people who only go to work in order to get money to buy drugs wouldn't just stop working altogether and stay high 24 hours a day if they could get all the drugs they wanted for free?Why do you think it is OK to hand out, no questions asked, the means for people to easily commit rape, as much as they wanted?How is having free, legal, widespread availability of crack and heroin going to help anyone recover from addiction?I see how unsuccessful recovering from nicotine addiction is for many people at my workplace. There are many smokers there, and I know at least 5 people who had quit smoking years ago who started smoking again, and are addicted again, because there is an entire culture of cigarette smoking as a way to take a break at my workplace and in our greater culture. There have even been some people in their mid twenties who started to smoke because they were around it so much and it was part of "taking a break" and "dealing with stress".This message has been edited by schrafinator, 03-17-2005 02:04 AM

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My question to you is:
1) how many people do not work and yet do not have a drug problem?

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I do not see how this is relevant to what we are talking about.

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2) how many people (if drugs were free) would end up in the state you described?

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I don't know exactly, but I would suppose it wouldn't be fewer than there are now, and it would probably be more.

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3) how many people would at least not resort to working in violent crime if drugs were legalized?

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Some violent crime would go down, but not all. Remember, it's not the huge expense of drugs that leads most addicts to commit crimes, it's that their drug use makes them unemployable, so they have no income for anything, including drugs.

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Unless free drugs means that people will likely become users, then addicts, and finally malingerers, then I don't see how your position acts as an argument that we should not have free drugs.

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Cigarettes are expensive and restricted but are legal and have much less of a stigma attached to them compared to heroin or crack, and millions of people are addicted to them worldwide. Probably a third of the US is addicted to nicotine, if not more.Now, jar says that he wants local health centers to hand over heroin and crack to anyone who wants it when they drop their kids off to daycare (and it had better be "nightcare" as well when mommy and daddy go on a bender for a couple of days).Why wouldn't such behavior become normalized in family life, what with the children growing up with crack and heroin use a normal part of everyday life, like cigarettes are?

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First of all "rape drugs" are not exactly drugs that people use for personal pleasure. That is they do not get one high and as far as I know they aren't even addictive. I'm not sure why Jar agreed to fund this as it seems if we are funding it them we'd have to be funding all sorts of chemical production that has no real benefit because it won't be helping addiction. It would be cost-benefit nil.

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Right. that's why I asked.

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In any case, let's assume they are handed out freely. So what? If you are knocking someone else out rather than yourself then you are commiting a crime. If another person knocks themself out and you rape them then you have commited a crime. What is the difference if the person who bought the drug got it full price, discount, or free?

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You can rape a person who passed out from alcohol, or you conked on the head. The fact that they are handing out "clubs" for free, does not mean more people will be conking people out in order to rape them.

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Should we install GHB dispensers in nightclub bathrooms then? Why don't we hand out guns and ammo to every violent criminal upon their release from prison? They'll get one anyway, right, and guns don't kill people, people kill people, right?

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You seem to keep riding the slippery slope fallacy of if evil can be done it will be done en masse.

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Cigarettes. Alcohol. (US)Opium in China under foreign influence.Let's remember that you were the one to briong up "evil", not me. I'm just talking about behavior.

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An addict may avoid getting involved with elements looking to keep him hooked

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Yeah that works great for people trying to quit smoking or drinking alcohol.You forget that recovering addicts often have to completely cut off contact with everything and everyone associated with their drug of choice in order to not continue using. Cigarettes and alcohol are available in every grocery and corner store, and many coworkers take frequent smoke breaks out back, and alcohol is at nearly every restaurant and social event they attend.Just having the stuff around, everywhere, in their everyday lives makes it very, very difficult to quit, even though there is lots of medical and social support available to help them do so.There is that old joke about attending AA meetings and not being able to see the speaker through the haze of cigarette smoke.

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as well as getting involved in crime which will further erode his connection to social supports he would need to stay out of trouble. Indeed, if it was a clinical center where drugs were obtained and counseling existed, he would not only have social supports there, but social pressure to stay out of crime.

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I am all for decrimimalizing drug USE, but not production and not distribution. I am also all for lots of free drug treatment for all addicts.

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Sending people to criminals to get their fix, and prison if they are caught using or selling, only increases their connection to elements that are going to pressure them to commit more crimes and avoid socializing influences.

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Like I have said several times, I support the decriminalization of drug USE.

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Some people really do manage to quit,

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...despite easy availability of their drug everywhere.

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and in any case those that do not can manage productive lives... correct?

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Yes, for a few decades anyway. Then they become a burden by having long, debilitating illnesses.Let us also remember that cigarettes and heroin and crack do not have exactly similar effects.Cigarettes do not impair your cognitive function, while heroin and crack most definitely do.

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As far as people "taking a break" that is emotional addiction, not physical addiction. I've watched offices get hooked on coffee breaks, and where no coffee was brewing then water breaks, bathroom breaks, etc etc.

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No, they need to "take a break" because they are having a nicotine craving and they get more and more irritable and distracted from the withdrawl symptoms until they feed their addiction.

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I am not sure how the argument that "it will be tough for people to break physical addiction if their source of chemicals is free", counters "it will be tough to break physical addiction because their source of chemicals will be criminal elements who will likely push them into crime and drive them further from social norms, as well as having less social help in general, plus they will now have to work harder (in desperation) in spite of their medical problem".

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I don't think these need to be the only two scenarios.Let's take the money we currently spend on incarcerating addicts and instead put it towards plentiful and free drug treatment centers, and also towards drug education.

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Prohibition failed. Do you agree with this or not? If it did fail, then why are drugs different?

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Yep, but we don't give alcohol away for free to anyone who wants it.

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As has been mentioned, Sherlock Holmes is a heroine addict, and this was not astoundingly remarkable, nor was it obligatory to paint him as a stumbling buffoon - quite the opposite, he is lauded for his intellect.

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but Sherlock Holmes is a fictional character, right?

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The number of folk that will simply drop out and stay high all the time will still be fewer than the number of folk we have locked up.

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Why do you keep writing as if I want to lock up drug addicts when I have told you at least three times that I am FOR the DEcriminalization of drug use?

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Why not?

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Wow, jar, I guess you do really live a sheltered life or something. I guess that's the luxury of not having to think about how to protect yourself from rape.

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Again, I just don't understand your objections. The drug isn't the issue, rape is the issue. Punish the folk for their behavior. I'm sure all the date rapists will gleefully trot down to the clinic, sign up to get their date-rape drugs.

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Yes, I actually think that is EXACTLY what will happen, especially if there is no cost and no questions asked. Maybe you don't realize it, jar, but most rapes are planned in advance by the rapist.This is similar to the way that men who wanted to kill their wives, and had been convicted of violent crimes in the past, used to be able to trot right down to K-Mart and buy guns and ammunition, no questions asked.

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Again, I clearly explained the answer to that. Under the system I propose the distribution point will be in health care clinics.

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Well, this is certainly better, but you have to admit that this is also a bit different from what you originally proposed. You are now putting conditions upon the distribution of the drugs where before you were not.

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And as I said before, "How does the current system help anyone recover from addiction?"

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Jar, I'd like you to read this next part very carefully, because I am getting rather tired of repeating myself.Why do you think I support the current system, when I have stated (this will be at least the fourth time now) that I SUPPORT the decriminalization of drug use and I SUPPORT making drug treatment abundant and free and easy to get into? I think the current "war on drugs" is stupid. I simply do not think that your extreme "baby out with the bathwater" proposal is the correct answer.I'd really like you to discuss what my actual views are, not the strawman you insist upon tearing down.

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however the effects of the drug itself are often confused with the effects of the "junkie" lifestyle.

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Well, this hasn't been my experience.The people at my workplace who were high when at work, were high at work.They stumbled, they stood in one place for minutes at a time, eyes half closed, they didn't eat.