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Author Topic:   The Implied Pre-Genesis Ice Age & It's Interesting Implications
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 42 of 65 (192367)
03-18-2005 8:18 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by jar
03-18-2005 12:03 AM


Re: 1: In the beginning God created: Genesis 1
But we KNOW that simply is not a correct interpretation, in fact it is no closer to the truth than my comparison to an Ice Rink.
LOL. You have produced nothing but nonsense for refutation.
We KNOW that for the first Billion Years or so that the earth was here it was a molten wasteland with NO water to freeze even if it was in the dark.
Your evidence?
We KNOW that the sun existed long before the earth did.
From what I've read of this, secularist scientists believe both earth and sun are around 4.5 billion years old.
We KNOW there was light LONG before the earth existed.
See above.
And we know that the concept of Day and Night could not exist until the earth was formed and both rotating and revolving around the sun.
And your evidence that God couldn't produce the light is what?
Trying to pretend that there is any real science in Genesis is not only piss poor science, it's piss poor theology.
What should one expect from a professed Christian who, so far has denied all but two supernatural events of the Bible, i.e. the miracle birth of Jesus and his resurrection?
Yes, this is a Faith and Belief forum. And as a Christian I believe it's my duty to speak out when folk try to bastardize the Bible and debase the Christian Faith.
More of your meanspirited insolence, Jar. Too bad I need to do my own moderating here in town.
This message has been edited by buzsaw, 03-18-2005 08:19 PM

The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past. buzsaw

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by jar, posted 03-18-2005 12:03 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by jar, posted 03-18-2005 9:33 PM Buzsaw has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 43 of 65 (192372)
03-18-2005 8:40 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by PaulK
03-18-2005 2:23 AM


Scott tries to argue as you do that the absence of the Sun means that the Earth would be frozen - however he brings nothing new in the way of argument.
As I understand him, he also agrees that ice can and is referred to as water, citing a Biblical text as evidence.
More significiant is the fact that he rejects the idea that the Bible implies that the Earth was frozen before Day 1 altogether, and even disagrees with you on the interpretation of the text dealing with "day 4".
There's a lot he likely doesn't agree with. So what?
If you are going to appeal to miracles you might as well argue that God maintained the temperature of the planet as that the Holy Spirit melted the ice. Neither is mentioned in the Bible - yet the first at least appeals to an action that might more properly be omitted since it does not describe a significant change ocurring during the period described by the text. Nor does he deal with the point I made that the formation Let me repeat the point - there is NOTHING directly implying a low temperature or ice.
If you insist on ignoring my important point that there's a lot of details the text omits, I can't help you here.
Moreover the desription in Genesis 1 resembles NO planet that we know of. We know of none that is entirely covered in water, none that do not orbit a star - and none where a God is actively intervening.
But if you use your science knowledge you should know that a molten hot earth wouldn't be covered with liquid water. You should also know scientifically that if it's cool enough to be covered with water, it's going to be ice until heated by something involving light and heat.
Irrelevence again - you assume that the Earth would have a long time to cool down and that God would not maintain the temperature but the text is entirely silent on these issues.
So what? God had recorded only what he deemed necessary.
As to your poitn about seasons and years - they are precisely the longer periods that I talked about. However they do NOT add to the ability to measure the length of a day in hours and even if they did it would not imply that a change in the lenght of the day had occurred there, nor that such a change could not have ocurred later on. It remains an irrelevance.
How so? Please reread my reasons for this.
The fatal problem with your position is that you assume that your speculations with little basis in the text - at best - are implications of the text. They are not. It would be just as valid for me to say that the Genesis implies that the Earth was created only a short period before Genesis 1:1 because it was still warm. Neither view is implied by the text, both owe more to speculation.
You fail to show where my hypothesis counters what is in text. Assumptions are made on my part, and may have other legitimate interpretations as in any hypothesis. My assumptions cannot be proven by text, nor do they counter the text. They are simply that -- my assumptions based on my interpretation of text. Others are free to believe otherwise.
At least, Paul, your arguments have been arguments, rather than frivolous nonsense and I appreciate that.
This message has been edited by buzsaw, 03-18-2005 08:42 PM

The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past. buzsaw

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by PaulK, posted 03-18-2005 2:23 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by PaulK, posted 03-19-2005 5:04 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 44 of 65 (192374)
03-18-2005 8:53 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by arachnophilia
03-18-2005 2:49 AM


Re: 1: In the beginning God created: Genesis 1
you argue that the "deep" and "water" of genesis 1:2 is in fact solid ice, do you not? and you reason this because there is no light, and therefore no heat, correct?
Please read carefully before posting. I'm going to say it for the last time. It was ice [i]until heat and light was applied, and that ,imo, is implicated in verse two by the Holy Spirti.
however, a verse later, the darkness is called "night." the light is called "day." there are light and darkness cycles described in the text, prior to the creation of the sun. do you agree?
now, tell me, does the ocean freeze over at night? and more importantly, do you think the ancient hebrews thought it did?
1. Likely a warm ocean would not freeze over night any more than it should with the sun.
2. The temperature would be regulated by God.
3. I have no idea if the ancient Hebrews even cared. The writers, according to scripture were directed by God what to include and what to exclude in the text.

The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past. buzsaw

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by arachnophilia, posted 03-18-2005 2:49 AM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by arachnophilia, posted 03-18-2005 10:42 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 45 of 65 (192375)
03-18-2005 8:58 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by arachnophilia
03-18-2005 2:55 AM


Re: 1: In the beginning God created: Genesis 1
buzz, you have failed to be sensible. i have provided evidence for a correct and literal reading of the text, and multiple reasons why what you're saying is a distortion.
and you have ignored my points, claimed i'm attacking strawmen, and refused to answer logical questions.
How so?
at a certain point, all we can do is sit back and laugh.
Go ahead, bud. Laugh yourself silly.

The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past. buzsaw

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by arachnophilia, posted 03-18-2005 2:55 AM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by arachnophilia, posted 03-18-2005 10:45 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 49 of 65 (192393)
03-18-2005 10:47 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by jar
03-18-2005 9:33 PM


Re: 1: In the beginning God created: Genesis 1
The temperature of the earth during the collation phase was far too high for water to exist in any form. In fact, where the water came from is still one of the most debated subjects in science.
At least the Bible has an answer to that problem and it has it existing at the time God began his work on it, first by applying light and heat, light implicating heat.
Around. A key word.
Oh, so you've moved from "long before" to "around." Ok, at least your correcting yourself.
During the period of planet construction, the sun definitely existed. Its mass is one of the things that determined that planets even formed. No sun, no planets. There are planets, therefore there was a sun there first.
1. That is, assuming there was no God to do things differently, as the Bible clearly states.
2. Omnipotent God is able to creat things like animals, Adam, and the sun relatively suddenly with appearance of age.
And we know that the concept of Day and Night could not exist until the earth was formed and both rotating and revolving around the sun.
.......Factoring out God, of course, which you can't do with my hypothesis. The topic is about my hypothesis, not yours.
Day and night do not depend on light, but rather a body that revolves and rotates so that one side faces the light while the other side faces away. For there to be day and night there had to be a point source light, AND the earth needed to be rotating so that it was partially lighted and partially dark.
The HS is multipresent, and not necessarily omnipresent, imo. He produce day and night in any way he chooses. God is omnipotent.

The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past. buzsaw

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by jar, posted 03-18-2005 9:33 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by jar, posted 03-18-2005 11:04 PM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 51 by arachnophilia, posted 03-18-2005 11:06 PM Buzsaw has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 55 of 65 (192579)
03-19-2005 6:33 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by jar
03-18-2005 11:04 PM


Re: 1: In the beginning God created: Genesis 1
Shrugs. Now, Jar, you can go ahead and say something -- anything, regardless of substance, as per above, so as to get the last word in.

The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past. buzsaw

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by jar, posted 03-18-2005 11:04 PM jar has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 56 of 65 (192583)
03-19-2005 6:42 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by arachnophilia
03-18-2005 11:06 PM


Re: 1: In the beginning God created: Genesis 1
look, light and ice! how can that be!
......and lo, some melted ice........heat.
what a tricky god! why would he mislead us?
He created mankind (like you and me) with enough intelligence so as to supposedly understand that when something is suddenly created intact, it's created with the appearance with age. With that in mind, what happened to you and Jar, in your obvious inability to comprehend this?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by arachnophilia, posted 03-18-2005 11:06 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by arachnophilia, posted 03-19-2005 8:38 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 57 of 65 (192587)
03-19-2005 6:47 PM


I was hoping we could get some more creationists in here to address this hypothethis, being that this poses problems for some of their views.
Any thoughts, Phatboy or others?
This message has been edited by buzsaw, 03-19-2005 06:48 PM

The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past. buzsaw

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by arachnophilia, posted 03-19-2005 8:39 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 58 of 65 (192596)
03-19-2005 7:20 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by wmscott
03-19-2005 12:36 PM


Re: the length of the creative days
The morning and evenings are beginning and endings, like the sun rising or setting on an empire or an age.
I believe there's a different word for age than for day.
The Genesis creation account is a simplified poetic story told to man in a earlier age. The fact that each creative day is described as having a morning and an evening does not in itself require that they be literal days.
If you want to be that liberal in interpretation, that's our option. I tend to apply a more conservative interpretation, leaving the word "day" intact, but applying textual implications to the length of the day. Remember that the Sabbath Day was the 7th, a literal day, for which the ancient Hebrews as well as some of us today still honor with a 24 hour rest.
Remember many things in the Bible are told in signs that have larger meanings like the parables Jesus told. Sometimes you have think a bit to discover the answer, this is part of how things in the Bible were hidden by God.
Yes, and when parables were intended, they were usually so designated. Too much human tampering via thought can distort the message so as to arrive at a false conclusion. Thus the emergence of so much false doctrines which caused so much ignorance and deception as so warned throughout the scriptures. The original fall of man in the garden came about by Satan's liberal interpretation of God's warnings.
On the length of the creative days, each one had a morning and an evening, all but the seventh day. Each of the earlier days we are told ended, but not the seventh, the Bible indicates that it is still on going. At Genesis 2:3 the seventh day starts and is on going, being referred to in Hebrew chapter 4 as still going on.
Off topic, but the Hebrews account is an analogy of the the literal Genesis day, imo.
As for the tree rings, the pre-flood climate may have something to do with that if there were a terrarium atmosphere over the earth.
A Second line of evidence I looked at was the pattern seen in fossil distribution around the world and the connection with rates of continental drift. What I found was that the patterns matched the movements of the continents, thus it was possible to use the rates of possible movement to estimate how long ago the animals had lived. Using the highest rates of movement seen today and even allowing for faster movement in the past, it is very apparent great lengths of time were involved in the creation of life on earth. While I am still doubtful about the accuracy of the timing of these pass events, it is apparent that they occurred and that they occurred very long ago.
You may also want to consider that a literal 24 creative day would only work for the one narrow area of the globe that would happened to be in the right place for the dawn, all the other areas would be out of position anyway. The sun can only shine on one side of the earth at a time, thus when God said let there be light, half the surface of the earth will not see it until later. Then when evening comes, and the one area that was in the right position to see the dawn, sees the sun set, an other part of the surface is just seeing the sun rise and the day is already ending. If you travel around the world you cross the international dateline at which you pass from one day of the week into another. Since the earth is a globe, such a arbitrary line is unavoidable, and since the earth was round at creation too, there would of had to been one then too. So you have the situation that if the creative days were literal days of 24 hours each and followed local time, there would have been a place on the earth were you would have a line that you could set across which would have one day on one side and a different day on the other. The only way of avoiding this situation is to start and end each day earth wide at the same time regardless of local time. Which would mean that the morning and evening of each day is merely the beginning and ending respectively of each day. So when you look at it in detail, there is no way the morning and evening of each creative day could have been literal without raising illogical conundrums.
The unknowns, of course in all this are many, as a sunless lighted and heated earth, the HS not being required to be consistently positioned and otherwise regulated with restrictions a sun would have. As stated, it is this variation in conditions which my hypothesis includes so as to produce the desired conditions God wanted for preparing the earth for life.
As for your other stuff on the length of days, the word is often used in reference to a period of time in history, but context so implies. To debate this at length would be to go off topic.

The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past. buzsaw

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by wmscott, posted 03-19-2005 12:36 PM wmscott has not replied

  
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