War On Drugs

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Oh you mean like marijuana, which is legal in the Netherlands and is a part of everyday life like cigs are?

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No, I don't mean like MJ. MJ to me is a lot like alcohol, only less harmful. It's effects are mild and not addictive, and it does not tend to lead to violent behavior the way alcohol does.Heroin and crack are in a completely different category. They are extremely addictive, just like nicotine. Unlike nicotine, however, heroin and crack impair cognitive function and judgement, usuually to a significant degree.

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I tend to think hard drugs would be viewed by families as alcohol and alcohol addiction is. It is not glamorous and a pretty healthy sign for people to be very careful.

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LOL! And yet we have a large alcoholism and alcohol abuse problem in the US, even though most people understand that alcoholism and alcohol abuse is bad. Binge drinking has become normalized on college campuses, and going out and getting trashed is just something that many people do sometimes.

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Look, this is just silly. First of all Jar was clearly talking about dispensing drugs out of a clinic and not in bar bathrooms. Second, you are now trying to drag this into some gun rights issue for criminals... do you view people that go to nightclubs equivalent to violent criminals?

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Let's review.

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In any case, let's assume they are handed out freely. So what? If you are knocking someone else out rather than yourself then you are commiting a crime. If another person knocks themself out and you rape them then you have commited a crime. What is the difference if the person who bought the drug got it full price, discount, or free?

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You can rape a person who passed out from alcohol, or you conked on the head. The fact that they are handing out "clubs" for free, does not mean more people will be conking people out in order to rape them.

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Several problems here. It is much more likely that a person in a bar or at a party will not drink so much that a rapist will be assured that they will pass out at all, or stay passed out during the entire rape. GHB takes care of this problem. Also, hitting a person on the head hard enough to knock them out is not something that some rapists want to do. It is also true that the victim might wake up from being knocked out in the midle of the rape, whaere this is not an issue when using GHB. If alcohol or hitting a person on the head was just as effective a way to render someone unable to resist compared to GHB, then why would it ever have gotten so popular in the first place? Obviously it works better than those methods.If it doesn't matter if drugs commonly used to facilitate specific violent crimes are handed out freely with no questions asked, then why not just have them where people are going to want them, like night club bathrooms, or maybe the supermarket? I know it seems like a silly suggestion, but I wasn't the one sggesting we hand out GHB for free, no questions asked.

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You really got something against tobacco.

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Yes, I do.

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This is not really true is it? What is the percentage of people that smoke who get cancer from smoking, or some other ailment?

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Statistics from the CDC* Tobacco use is the leading preventable cause of death in the United States.1 Cigarette smoking causes an estimated 440,000 deaths, or about 1 of every 5 deaths, each year.2,3 This estimate includes 35,000 deaths from secondhand smoke exposure.2* More deaths are caused each year by tobacco use than by all deaths from human immunodeficiency virus (HIV), illegal drug use, alcohol use, motor vehicle injuries, suicides, and murders combined.* The risk of dying from lung cancer is more than 22 times higher among men who smoke cigarettes and about 12 times higher among women who smoke cigarettes compared with never smokers.6* Since 1950, lung cancer deaths among women have increased by more than 600%.1 Since 1987, lung cancer has been the leading cause of cancer-related deaths in women.1* Cigarette smoking results in a two- to three-fold increased risk of dying from coronary heart disease.6* Cigarette smoking is associated with a ten-fold increased risk of dying from chronic obstructive lung disease.6 About 90% of all deaths from chronic obstructive lung diseases are attributable to cigarette smoking.1,6* Pipe smoking and cigar smoking increase the risk of dying from cancers of the lung, esophagus, larynx, and oral cavity.7 Smokeless tobacco use increases the risk for developing oral cancer

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Then compare this with the percentage of everyone else that gets long debilitating illnesses before they die.

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I think the best you will come up with is that perhaps on average, smokers will get their debilitating illnesses earlier than nonsmokers.

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I also looked for statistics regarding non-smoking related cancers, and found that they are also on the rise, but pale in comparison to those from smoking, especially among women. another report, Baby Boomer-specific

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Intriguingly the smokers I did know all lived pretty long lives (of those that have died). The one guy I know that died of lung cancer was an avid nonsmoker and admitted the irony of his suffering and death (before his death of course).

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The statistics are pretty clear and damning. People, especially women, who smoke have a much greater chance of getting a variety of debilitating illnesses in the first place compared to non-smokers.As for the argument for the government being in the business of producing and distributing all illicit drugs, I have some thinking to do. You have brought up some good points, but I still think that Jar's approach is very extreme. Of course, he is continuing to modify it and put qualifiers and conditions on his original completey laissez faire notion.Incidentally, I have known several people who have died in their fifties from smoking-related illnesses, and my parents have both been in poor health since their late fiftes/early sixties from smoking-related illnesses (and other lifestyle issues in my father's case, such as a lot of stress and obesity. My mother's series of mini-strokes was due to smoking alone). Now, when they should be travelling and enjoying their retirement, they can only sit around and wait to die, basically.

The hardass in me wants you to acknowledge that I have my knee on your neck regarding the GHB and "families will view hard drugs like they do alcohol abuse and Alcoholism" stuff, but I'm afraid that this will just get you turned on, so I won't mention it.

Ah, I understand, thanks for explaining.

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Regarding GHB, I still am not convinced of its relevance to this topic or its correct analogy being handing out guns to convicts as they exit prison. Both seem stretched.

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I see the problem you are getting at. There is a valid question of why would anyone want to be handing out a drug with only one purpose (knocking a person out), and has recently been popularized because some people knock out other in order to sexually assault/rape them? I agree, why would anyone want to?

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However I don't believe that if this happened it would necessarily make more people want to use it on others, unless getting assaulted/raped became something of an in thing and so acceptable/nonprosecuted. I also don't see how it would help a person who did such a thing get out of the legal repercussions of having used it.

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See, I do think that we would see an increase in people wanting to use it to rape others.It's a lot like looting.Most people would be unlikely to knock off an electronics store when someone is there, or steal something out of a home where people are currently living, where all the security measures and police protection are in place. They just don't want to take the risk of getting caught.However, if there is a situation where the police are not going to come protect that store, and the power is out in town, or a house is unoccupied but contains valuable carved mantles and light fixtures, some of those people are going to regognize the opportunity to get away with this criminal activity because the risk of being caught was just lowered quite a lot.Add to that the fairly widespread attitude in our culture that men have a right to women's bodies to use as they see fit. (and before you protest, I know that most men DO NOT RAPE, and in fact are sickened by the idea. Nevertheless, we live in a culture where rape of women is romanticized and only recently even recognized spousal- and date-rape as existing at all)Similarly, if nearly all chance of being caught or having any difficulty with the victim is removed is combined with the free and easy and no-risk aquisition of GHB (or other rape-facilitating drugs), I do think that more rapes would occur.

Thanks for the reminder.It's a interesting article, and agree that many of these women should be in treatment for drug addiction and/or domestic abuse, not prison.It's poorly written laws that are the culprit here.

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I don't believe in "date rape". This notion has also been "romanticized" by women trying to be able to get on the bandwagon of having been "victimized" in some way.

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Yes women on dates can and have been raped... plain raped. The current idea of "date rape" demeans those that have actually been sexually assaulted or worse.

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And before you say anything I have seen plenty of it to make me sick to my stomach. The worst was being in a room of women complaining about how they were date raped and you could see them getting off on how "violated" they were like it was some game with a point system. When I interjected that their stories were not rape or even assault they asked what I could know since I was a guy... then I told my story. That shut them the hell up.

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OK, but I don't really think your anecdotal experiences constitute reliable data on how many people have been date raped.I really don't care what the jackasses above said. I understand that rape is really common, that rape is really underreported, that most rapes are comitted by someone the victim knows, and most rapes are comitted in the victim's home, with no forced entry.You don't believe in date rape? Fine, I (very nearly) don't believe in stranger rape since it is so rare.

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I don't see how access to that drug will decrease the chance of people being caught,

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The thing about GHB is that the drug makes you not remember anything about what happened. How are you supposed to catch your rapist when you never saw his face, or saw dozens of faces?

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though I guess I see some degree of making it easier to "handle" the victim. But then my question to you would be if this were the case (free GHB) wouldn't potential victims be taking additional steps to avoid getting drugged? If anything were more normalized my expectation would be people being very careful with who and where they drank.

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That is simply putting even more responsibility onto the targets of rape while at the same time removing barriers to rapists to rape people more easily.

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We may have to agree to disagree on this matter, it seems more based on how one views humanity. Neither Pessimism nor Optimism are incorrect positions, they just color some conclusions regarding future events which probably contain a bit of both.

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I actually agree with this very much.

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That was not the only time. While anecdotal, every single encounter I have had with girls claiming "date rape" have not been rapes at all. That was just one of the most gut churning encounters.

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I'm sure it was really annoying. I would have been really annoyed and disturbed too.It still doesn't mean a damn thing holmes, and you know it.The people who had really been date raped probably wouldn't be standing around talking about it, and do you have the ability to form the kind of relationship with every single woman you meet where they would suddenly and immediately pour out all of their rage and anguish about a real rape to you?

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People that have been actually raped don't need separate categories for what kind of rape or assault they underwent.

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So, spousal rape isn't allowed to be called spousal rape? Incest isn't allowed to be called incest? Stranger rape isn't allowed to be called stranger rape?

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Date rape was (IMO) invented by people wanting to add more victimization categories for people to fit into, and not to point out that people can be raped by those they know.

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OK, that may or may not be valid.Or, it might have been invented by people in order to point out that rape actually can be (and most often is) perpetrated by someone the victim knows and even trusts, like someone she has dated, a boyfriend.You don't think that, for a long time, the idea that spousal rape was silly was widespread, simply because it was a husband's right to have sex with his wife any time he wanted? You don't think that the attitude of "Well, I paid for dinner and a show, now you are going to put out" wasn't part of our culture for a long time? You don't think that the attitude of "when a woman says 'no', she really means 'maybe'" wasn't widespread in our culture?Why not shine a light on those things, and call them something specific, to differentiate them from so-called "stranger rape", but still call those actions by their proper term; rape.

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After all many murders are commited by close acquaintences as well, yet we don't talk about "date murder". This is very simply, people get raped or they don't.

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But we do talk about "murder/suicides" when a man kills his partner then kills himself.

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This is not a very healthy nor accurate view of the world.

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It isn't accurate?Show me the stats.

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It is a victim-model of existence.

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Um, how? It is purely factual.

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Rape is not really common.

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So, all of the justice department stats are wrong according to you? Please, explain how they are incorrect and I should listen to holmes instead of the Justice Department.

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It certainly does happen and people must protect themselves from that as well as other crimes, but it is not an everyday occurence in people's lives.

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That's not true according to the Justice Department.

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It is underreported, even my own incident went unreported. In a way I am glad I did not so that I did not become part of the victim factory the US is running.

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...yet you were a victim. You are a survivor, too, but you were also a victim. The "US victim factory" didn't make you a victim of rape, your rapist did.You did what was best for you and your life when you decided to not report it. I just hope that the person who did it to you was reported and prosecuted by the next person he raped.

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Indeed I am somewhat disturbed when people who haven't been attacked in some way use my case for why they need to feel afraid about the world. I was attacked, and I'm not afraid of the world.

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I'm not afraid of the world, either. Show me why I shouldn't believe the Justice Department statistics.

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Whether most people get attacked by those they know is irrelevant to issues of rape, rather than an interesting demographical statistic. If you think watching all your friends and family is going to protect you it will not. Most attacks come where you least expect them. That's how they succeed.

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I thought you wanted me to not be afraid of the world and now you are talking about "the attacks will come from where you least expect them.">This message has been edited by schrafinator, 03-22-2005 08:26 AM

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In practice, what we have are women using the "date" clause to wrangle themselves into the "rape" category. That does dilute the image of rape and so demeans those who have actually been through violent or coerced sexual experiences.

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This does not argue that all women are doing so, nor that no women can be raped on dates.

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But holmes, the fact that you know some women who have said this isn't an argument. It is just anecdotal evidence from your personal experience.I have never, ever, even once heard any woman talking about being date raped in the way you describe. Does that mean that I now get to claim that what you describe never, ever happens?

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Now why on earth did the nomenclature have to change in order to protect people on dates and in marriages?

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So a woman could finally be taken seriously when she went to the police and told them that she was fooling around with a guy on a date but then he raped her.Women used to be laughed at in these situations.Are you seriously suggesting that the scenario above is not significantly different from a rape in which a woman walking home from the bus station is dragged into the bushes and raped by a stranger?

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I would argue no. These are all offshoots of a branch of feminism which has embraced the new victim culture. There is rape, plain and simple, and the environmental flavor of the rape should not create some new phrase.

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What does it benefit anyone to have these new terms?

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I agree that there are downsides to using such terminology, but you are discounting the benefits out of hand, I think.People have been raped on dates. That this happens is a fact.It is also a fact that it used to be thought that if there was any kind of sexual or romantic physical contact during the date before the rape, law enforcement would be much less likely to take allegations of rape seriously.This is similar to the notion that prostitutes can't be raped, or that if a woman dresses in sexy or revealing clothing, she is "asking for it".

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In any case, I don't see how diluting the term rape helped any of these events from not happening.

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1) I don't see how I have diluted the term. Yes, some people misuse it, just like some people misuse lots of othjer terms. The issues and circumstances involved with a rape by someone trused or by a complete stranger are different.2)This is from a the American Academy of Pediatrics survey: My point in listing this stat is that a sizeable minority of the men surveyed above were using coersion and/or physical force or aggression to have sex but don't even consider it rape.

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Yes, please show me the definitions they have for "really common" and the stats to show how we fall into that.

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The JD doesn't use the term "really common", I do. stats

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This is exactly the kind of crap I am talking about. I was a victim and now I am a survivor. Puh-lease. This IS what the US victim factory is doing to people.

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I was victimized by another person. In that moment I was a victim, just as I have been in countless other situations of violence/coercion/or maltreatment. I did not become a victim forevermore. It was an event.

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Right. That's waht I said.

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Only this was sexual so it must have been more important than the time I was robbed of money, or forced into labor against my will, or other situations we teach usually teach people that they have to move beyond and NOT consider themselves victims.

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Uh, I think that they were all still victims of crimes, no matter if they consider themselves such or not. It's just a fact.Please don't confuse your distaste for the "victim culture" with the fact that people ARE victimized.

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I also "survived", by which I went through a short rough period of adjustment, as I have after other traumatic incidents, and then moved on with life. That does not make me a "survivor".

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Uh, a "survivor" is defined as "someone who survived".This makes you a survivor, and that is a fact. Your distaste with how the "victim culture" treats survivors does not erase the fact that you recovered after your assaults.

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These names are in the past and pointless as identifiers for who I am,

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But, didn't you just say that you were victimized and you survived?That makes them part of your past, thus part of who you are today. That doesn't mean you have to buy into the "victim culture" of forever feeling victimized and getting special pride and martyhood feelings about being a "survivor".

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and should be beyond teh reach of people to use for their own political agendas.

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Of course.

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Unfortunately I have continued to be a "victim" and "survivor" and part of a statistic to argue for laws and positions I do not agree with at all and certainly have no relevance to what I learned from my experience.

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But the past victimization and survival really did happen, right?

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Please explain how this necessitated, or was made more understandable by coining the term "date rape", rather than simply making public arguments that women who are in the situation above are "raped"... just plain "raped."

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I think it was made more understandable because now such actions, which were previously not considered rape at all, are now definitely considered rape.Look, I know a woman who, 20 years ago, was stranger raped when she was in high school and walking home.She was wearing her school uniform, which included a short skirt, and this was included in the defense's argument that she was "asking for it", and this was allowed by the legal system and the judge, and was instrumental in lessening the charge for her rapist.If this is the kind of treatment this girl got when she was stranger raped, what do you think would have happened to her if she went to the police saying that her boyfriend raped her after they were fooling around?If it is the prevalent cultural attitude among men that "women ask for it", and "I'm entitled to sex if I've paid for dinner/ am married to the woman", and nearly all law enforcement officers are male, how do you think they are going to treat such incidences? As rape? not likely, unless we define it specifically as such.

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In fact I would argue that creating the new definition actually makes people take rape less seriously in general, rather than making rapes by partners more serious.

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I disagree. I think it is simply a way to describe, rightfully, a type of rape that was previously unrecognized by law enforcement and indeed, many males in our culture, as real rape.This message has been edited by schrafinator, 03-22-2005 11:15 AM