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Author Topic:   Splintering our Education System based on FAITH
tsig
Member (Idle past 2939 days)
Posts: 738
From: USA
Joined: 04-09-2004


Message 7 of 110 (195744)
03-31-2005 1:49 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Faith
03-31-2005 12:31 PM


Back to the Future?
In case you are unaware of it, the fact is that homeschooled children generally do MUCH better overall than public schooled children. Existing religious schools have no problem with accreditation so I don't know what you are worried about.
Please back this up with some evidence.
Are you at all aware that the first universities in Europe and America were founded by Christians for the purpose of giving a specifically Christian education, that in fact they aimed to give future pastors a solid liberal education, that prayer and chapel service were part of the curriculum, that Bible was foundational? I'm talking Oxford, Harvard, Yale, Holmes. Are you aware of any of that? What kind of strange idea do you have about a Christian education anyway?
Are you proposing that we go back to the 13th century for education standards?
Poppycock. The students I hope Christian schools will start turning out could ace any exam on any subject and think better than the examiners.
Whether they had studied the subject or not? You have just claimed your christian students will be the equal of god.
What if the examiners were products of this most outstanding education?
Don't know if that's possible because the level of education in such a school would start attracting secularists anyway.
Not unless they're attracted to the monastic life.
Why are not christians doing these things now? What stops you from starting universitys?
{Edited to add Subtitle & "P"}
This message has been edited by DHA, 03-31-2005 01:54 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Faith, posted 03-31-2005 12:31 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by Faith, posted 03-31-2005 1:54 PM tsig has replied
 Message 11 by Faith, posted 03-31-2005 2:01 PM tsig has replied

tsig
Member (Idle past 2939 days)
Posts: 738
From: USA
Joined: 04-09-2004


Message 12 of 110 (195751)
03-31-2005 2:06 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Faith
03-31-2005 1:54 PM


How about reading the essay by Dorothy Sayers I linked. Nothing you said is worth responding to. Invincible ignorance seems to be the standard of most posters at this website.
Yes I read the link, that's why I responded the way I did. She is avocating a return to the middle-ages.
Now would you please show me where home-shoolers have better test scores? You are supposed to back assertion with evidence, not name-calling, of course my ignorance is so invincible I might have misuderstood your meaning.
IKf it was'nt worth responding to then why did you?

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tsig
Member (Idle past 2939 days)
Posts: 738
From: USA
Joined: 04-09-2004


Message 14 of 110 (195753)
03-31-2005 2:10 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Faith
03-31-2005 2:01 PM


Re: Back to the Future?
Your ignorance of the success of homeschoolers is remarkable considering that it is well known. There may be better articles than the following on the subject, I don't know. I did only a cursory search.
Cross posted, probaably due to my ignorance, will read the links and reply.

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tsig
Member (Idle past 2939 days)
Posts: 738
From: USA
Joined: 04-09-2004


Message 17 of 110 (195757)
03-31-2005 2:24 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Faith
03-31-2005 2:01 PM


Re: Back to the Future?
qsYour ignorance of the success of homeschoolers is remarkable considering that it is well known. There may be better articles than the following on the subject, I don't know. I did only a cursory search.[/qs]
Thanks for the info.
I read the links, Ned has arady pointed out the anecdotel nature of the first one, and the next two are studies done by home schooling associations.

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tsig
Member (Idle past 2939 days)
Posts: 738
From: USA
Joined: 04-09-2004


Message 19 of 110 (195761)
03-31-2005 2:28 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by kjsimons
03-31-2005 2:17 PM


Re: Back to the Future?
I'm not down on home schooling but these articles you linked to are sort of comparing apples and oranges as they are comparing home schooled to public schooled when a more correct (in my view) comparison would be to compare the home schooled only to public schooled students with highly involved parents. I'm of the opinion that parents that home school there children are more involved in their children's education then the average public schooled child's parents are. I think having parents highly involved in their childrens education, makes more of a difference than whether the student was public or home schooled.
Thanks for that point, I was going to make it, but was too slow.
To restate, these studies are comparing a self-selected group to the average group, bound to be some difference, esp. when one of the factors of the self-selection was concern for the children.

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tsig
Member (Idle past 2939 days)
Posts: 738
From: USA
Joined: 04-09-2004


Message 24 of 110 (195769)
03-31-2005 2:36 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Faith
03-31-2005 2:27 PM


Not lost
The whole essay was intended to give a view of education that is completely different from whatever holmes is imagining, a picture of rigor in academic disciplines. The medieval curriculum of the Trivium and the Quadrivium is what she proposes, the Trivium being designed to give young children the tools for thinking and solving problems and communicating well, such as Latin, foreign languages, Logic, Grammar, Debate, upon which the Quadrivium later builds, which is particular subject matter. She covers a great deal of territory rather briefly, and the whole thing is relevant, I believe, to the subject of education in general, and it's a fun essay to read
Why don't christians establish universitys along these lines, then when their sucess became obvious, students would flock to them, money would flow, and all the great profs would want to teach there?

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tsig
Member (Idle past 2939 days)
Posts: 738
From: USA
Joined: 04-09-2004


Message 26 of 110 (195771)
03-31-2005 2:43 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by kjsimons
03-31-2005 2:36 PM


Re: Back to the Future?
Thank you!
It's only my ego that keeps my diamond afloat, so any boost is appreciated.LOL

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tsig
Member (Idle past 2939 days)
Posts: 738
From: USA
Joined: 04-09-2004


Message 29 of 110 (195776)
03-31-2005 2:53 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Silent H
03-27-2005 4:33 AM


Splintering
I then asked if this would not result in the splintering of education based on all sorts of different beliefs, such that we'd have to allow flat earth belief, nonheliocentruc belief, Newtonian (vs Relativistic) belief, the Holocaust never happened belief, etc etc?
Splintering is the perfect word to use since the CREOs are using the Wedge Stratagy.
It goes farther than education, it is just the point of the wedge. Making America into a faith-based nation is the true agenda. Education is only the point of the real wedge. (no need for reply if deemed derail)

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tsig
Member (Idle past 2939 days)
Posts: 738
From: USA
Joined: 04-09-2004


Message 37 of 110 (195786)
03-31-2005 3:13 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Faith
03-31-2005 3:04 PM


Re: Not lost
The Trivium is Elementary School, the Quadrivium roughly Jr. High to High School.
I thought they were taught at what we might consider the college level. IIRC there was no Elementery or High school.
By the way I never really thanked you for the links. We might disagree with what they mean, but was so refreshing to see evidence to look at.
Also, you were right, home-schoolers do test better.

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Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by CK, posted 03-31-2005 3:19 PM tsig has replied

tsig
Member (Idle past 2939 days)
Posts: 738
From: USA
Joined: 04-09-2004


Message 39 of 110 (195789)
03-31-2005 3:18 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by crashfrog
03-31-2005 3:09 PM


leaping without looking
I guess you haven't had this conversation with Faith yet. She finds it unspeakably rude that you don't simply take her word for every assertion she makes.
Crash, she did reply and provided links, think you leaped without looking here. Happy landings.

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tsig
Member (Idle past 2939 days)
Posts: 738
From: USA
Joined: 04-09-2004


Message 42 of 110 (195796)
03-31-2005 3:28 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by jar
03-31-2005 3:17 PM


Re: The issue of input material.
One thing that has to be stressed and that is often overlooked in examination of Public School Systems is that the schools have no control over the quality of the raw materials they are forced to work with. Any non-public school system would be expected to do better simply because they have some control over the raw materials. The productivity and performance of students is not under the control of the teachers, it is the responsibility of the parents. If the parents are not motivated to prepare the raw materials, then the product that comes out of the school will be crap.
It's the self-selection factor. I would expect any group tha can select it's own members to be different than the general public. no?

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Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by jar, posted 03-31-2005 3:50 PM tsig has replied

tsig
Member (Idle past 2939 days)
Posts: 738
From: USA
Joined: 04-09-2004


Message 45 of 110 (195801)
03-31-2005 3:38 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by CK
03-31-2005 3:19 PM


OT
Yes home-schoolers do seem to test better as a group.That does not mean that people following the specific Curricula suggested by Faith (vague as it is) would do so.
OK, we seem to be a little afield here.
We have already seen efforts to splinter the education system. Vouchers are one of the ways that seek to chanel gov. money to churches and thier affiliates.
I think Holmes's case is proved by the actions of the Kansas School Board for one

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tsig
Member (Idle past 2939 days)
Posts: 738
From: USA
Joined: 04-09-2004


Message 46 of 110 (195803)
03-31-2005 3:41 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by crashfrog
03-31-2005 3:30 PM


Re: leaping without looking
I hadn't seen that, but my comments did accurately reflect the substance of conversations had in this thread. It was literally referred to as "rude" to challenge an assertion.
I know, Iv'e read many of the threads. I just couldn't resist the gig.

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tsig
Member (Idle past 2939 days)
Posts: 738
From: USA
Joined: 04-09-2004


Message 50 of 110 (195815)
03-31-2005 4:00 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by jar
03-31-2005 3:50 PM


Re: The issue of input material.
That basic commitment on the part of the parents goes a long way towards warranting the quality of the output. The simple fact that the parents have made a commitment to education, raised it to a level somewhat above universal daycare would likely increase the quality of the output product.
Yes.
Must..work. Bye

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tsig
Member (Idle past 2939 days)
Posts: 738
From: USA
Joined: 04-09-2004


Message 62 of 110 (195921)
04-01-2005 1:12 AM
Reply to: Message 59 by Faith
04-01-2005 12:00 AM


Re: Back to the Future?
It's amazing but all the corroborating lines of evidence are like conspirators in a delusion. Evolution doesn't explain anything. The data is forced to fit it. And there are NO practical applications whatever. It is absolutely unnecessary to any of the practical business of science. It wastes time corroborating itself by multiplying delusion upon delusion.
Best description of ID I've seen.
The question begging is on the evolutionist side of this. Over and over I've been answered here by arguments that come down to nothing more than "Evolution is true because it's true."
Faith you don't know enough about the ToE to discuss it. You have been presented with hundreds of pieces of evidence, but your only response has been to accuse all scientists(exept for the Id ones) of lying, covering up and falsifing data.
It is the Creo's and IDers who start out with a conclusion, then butcher the facts to fit.
A closed mind can only be opened with a sledgehammer.
Everybody seems to be out of step but you.

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