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Syamsu  Suspended Member (Idle past 5620 days) Posts: 1914 From: amsterdam Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Violent propaganda | |||||||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
As to your laundry list in IRAQ, no, of course not. Damn it, we broke everything and now should get credit for fixing them. Laughable.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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mick Member (Idle past 5016 days) Posts: 913 Joined: |
One practical response to terrorism that has often been successful is for governments of the people targeted by terrorists to negotiate with the terrorists and enter into talks to try to resolve some of the perceived grievances. Huge Disagree.
Disagree all you like, Tal, but the numbers speak for themselves. Secret negotiations between the British government and the IRA began in 1993/1994. Number of deaths related to N.I. sectarian violence in the three years before the start of negotiations: 339 Number of deaths related to N.I. sectarian violence in the last three years: 24 Data from Answers - The Most Trusted Place for Answering Life's Questions So, over a decade of negotiations, we got a 93% reduction in the number of deaths. As I said, the numbers speak for themselves. Perhaps a 93% reduction doesn't mean much to somebody like Secretary of State Lawrence Eagleburger, but it means a lot to me.
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contracycle Inactive Member |
Tal isn't much interested in reality, Mick. As you can see, all his arguments depend on quotes from leaders of large instutions, and invariably ones which have a vested interest.
Whish is why I'd like to ask Tal if any of these great works were paid for with American money? Because as you will no doubt recall, USAID said the considtions in Iraq were so unstable they had only been "able" to spend 2% of their budget up until last year, despite finding ways to spend the entirety of the aid budget allocated by the United Nations. So, is Tal here claiming credit for spending paid for for by the UN while American money remains in American banks?
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StormWolfx2x Inactive Member |
I think was tal was saying is more that rewarding individual acts of terror has an overall negative net effect in the long run.
simple example: giving in to all of a bankrobber's demands and letting them get away simply because they have a hostage may be good for that hostage, but probably would lead to copycat crimes and endanger more people. similarly should we close all abortion clinics because some zealot plants a pipe bomb? No.
So, over a decade of negotiations, we got a 93% reduction in the number of deaths. living in america we don't hear very much about the IRA so im not totally informed, but through even some cursory reading of Wikipedia it seems to me that during and before that period there was a decrease in the "terrorist" power and activities of the IRA from the combined decrease in public support for the IRA due to collatoral damage incidents, a crackdown from the british gov arresting IRA members, large numbers of informents, and a mainstream outlet for their ideals (socialism has been increasingly more accepted worldwide after the collapse of the Soveit Union). Also
Secret negotiations between the British government and the IRA began in 1993/1994 why did you pick those years as the "start of negotiations" from wikipedia
Gerry Adams was involved in secret talks with SDLP leader John Hume, MP from 1988. The series of contacts, between Adams and Hume, and both with the British and Irish governments provided the groundwork for what was later to be the Belfast Agreement, as well as to the milestone Downing Street Declaration and the Joint Framework Document." it looks as if there were lots of peace talks in the 70's and 80's if talks are "One practical response to terrorism that has often been successful" why didn't it work earlier? Isn't it more plaussible that other, actually new factors played a larger roll in the change in # of deaths. heres one (from wikipedia again)
In 1993: Two PIRA bombs at opposite ends of a shopping street in Warrington, timed to go off within minutes of each other, killing two children.....which led to tens of thousands of people descending on O'Connell Street in Dublin to call for an end to the IRA's campaign of violence. deaths per year according to your source
2004 2 (2) 2003 10 (2) 2002 11 (4) 2001 15 2000 19 1999 8 1998 53 1997 21 1996 17 1995 9 1994 60 1993 84 1992 85 1991 94 1990 76 so deaths in 3 years prior = 255and deaths in 3 years after = 86 so about a 2/3rds reduction in death, what makes your secret talks more of a factor than massive public outcry? lastly where did you get your numbers because it doesn't look like it was from the source you quoted in no 3 year period on your source do the deaths equal 339and in the last 3 years the deaths are between 23 and 15 ( numbers in () meaning uncertain if conflict-related).
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contracycle Inactive Member |
quote: Thats reasonable enough, but is that a valid scenario? If people are fighting for their freedom, acceeding to some of their demands shows you are not a tyrant. The dogmatic refusal to even discuss the demands and aims of the violent movement confronting you can only escalate the conflict.
quote: Ha ha. In the first instance, it is quite remarkable that you hear little about Irish terrorism, becuase after all America was the primary fundraiser for this terrorism, harboured terrorists, and contributed to the murder of British citizens. All of which makes the outcry against terrorism rather hypocritical coming from the US, and al;so why you hear little about that dirty little semi-secret. Secondly, the reason for the decline in violence was becuase the IRA's political strategy was working. It's political wing, Sinn Fein, stood for and won elections (thus demonstrating the IRA had a genuine constituency) and moves by the British government toward a power-charing agreement. In other words, precisely the mature, negotated strategy that Mick was pointing to. And indeed, that discipline on the IRA side - not for nothing described as the most professional of European terrorist organs - arises in large part from the materialism and political praxis it acquired from its Marxist links and history.
quote: First, note that the leader of the SDLP is not the British government. Second, the reason it did not work earlier was because the public position of the UK was "we do not negotiate with terrorists". The main impediment was a) BritGov coming to the deicsion to negotiate, and b) BritGov backtracking on its unwillingness to negotiate. At the same time, the British and Us governments were backing the hardline stance of the NAtional Party in South Africa against negotiating with the ANC on exactly the same grounds. I specifically recall Ronald Reagan expressing sympathy for the South African state and its struggle against evil. Quite clearly, negotiation does work. It does work because the combatants do have grievances that can be met. The main impediment is moralism, and the illingness to keep fighting and dying becuase of the alleged danger of negotiating with terrorists - a danger all the more hypocritical becuase we manifestly do, as states, use the threat of violence to force others to do as we say.
quote: What public outcry? You forget, the IRA are the leading edge of a legitimate and broad-based popular concern. While there are concerns about the use of violence, the British Army is after still in occupation, is it not? What controlled violence is that the IRA leadership were able to rein in their members becuase they had reason to believe that negotiations were making progress. Throughtout the history of the troubles, the IRA have been quite diligent in trying to de-escalate the conflict. That hard-line, no negotiation, no compromise, fanatical position was on the part of the British Government. {Fixed 1 quote box. - AM} This message has been edited by Adminnemooseus, 05-04-2005 12:56 PM
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mick Member (Idle past 5016 days) Posts: 913 Joined: |
thanks for this, contracycle beat me to it and gave a reasonable answer to this.
Just to confirm, John Hume isn't a representative of the British government. The negotiations with the British government started with John Major. As for the numbers, you are right i miscalculated. It took the years from 1990-1993 rather than 1991-1993. But if you calculate the difference between deaths in 1990-3 (inclusive) and deaths in 2001-2004 (inclusive) you get an approximate decline of 88-89%, which is still good! On a more general point, negotiations with terrorists are often demonized by politicians in public, but just carried out by those same politicians in secret. Sometimes it is even done openly. For example Israel is always calling the PLO a terrorist organization, but has formalised means of negotiation. Same goes for various more-or-less violent guerrilla groups such as FARC, Shining Path, Zapatista, etc, who are all labelled terrorists by the respective governments. I would be very surprised if the US government and many European governments didn't have informal channels of contact with the fundamentalist groups in Saudi Arabia, which will end up as negotiation sooner or later.
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Tal Member (Idle past 5707 days) Posts: 1140 From: Fort Bragg, NC Joined: |
So, is Tal here claiming credit for spending paid for for by the UN while American money remains in American banks? Source? Here's mine...MNFI Humanitarian Website] Now, and I hate to keep using the "I was there" reason, but I spent the last 2 months working for the Chief, Econimics Effects Branch, MNFI. Now alot of projects are on hold for various reasons, most of them have to do with local politics (contrary to what you hear on the news, most of Iraq is not in the state of chaos that the news portrays it to be). However, ALOT of money has been spent. I don't recall any of it being from the U.N. I personally handled a 40million dollar check from General Nashabondai(sp?) to the Chief EEB. But lets look at what was spent in 03/04 from my quote earlier.
Awarded $1.3 million in small grants to support Iraqi NGO healthcare efforts throughout Iraq. Facilities and Supplies Awarded 627 grants worth more than $6 million to rehabilitate schools and equip Directorates General Contributed cash and food aid totaling $425 million to WFP's emergency operations immediately following the conflict, making the United States the foremost contributor to WFP emergency operations in Iraq. Awarded $16.7 million to government agencies and civil society organizations to enable municipal authorities to deliver core municipal services. Committed $2.4 million to support the CPA's nationwide Civic Education Campaign, which facilitates dialogue and increases democracy awareness. CAP has committed $51 million for 1,397 community projects across Iraq; 976 projects have already been completed. *Figures from back in 03...so lets assume more have been completed. A total of $6.2 million, which was supplied by the ministry, has been earmarked for the Fallujah General Hospital and medical clinic renovations in and around the city. The Ministry of Health has also recently allocated $40 million for a new general hospital in Fallujah. Now, before you bring up the google news from back in 2004 let me pre-counter them with this:
Equation for Iraq: 2,000 Projects = Progress Wednesday, March 16, 2005 STORIES ARCHIVE BACKGROUND LINKSJapan to Release $97 Million in Iraq AidRebuilding IraqCongress OKs WH Plan to Shift Iraq Money BAGHDAD, Iraq Stories of homicide bombers or kidnappers get most of the news headlines out of Iraq (search) but U.S. officials working in the country want Americans to think about other things when they mull the millions of tax dollars spent there. U.S. and Iraqi workers are joining to complete 2,000 projects funded by U.S. taxpayers, which Charlie Hess said is a sign of "good progress ... for their kids." Local Iraqis "want clean water adequate and decent homes, good schools and quality of life, Hess, who is the director of the Project and Contracting Office, said. According to its Web site, the Project and Contracting Office aims to "serve the people of the United States and Iraq by contracting for and delivering services, supplies and infrastructure identified within the Iraqi Relief and Reconstruction Fund, a total $18.4 billion in resources allocated by the U.S. government and taxpaying public for the rebuilding of Iraq." In Baghdad, workers are erecting hospital, and in Kurdistan, Americans and Iraqis have come together to construct a $10 million electricity substation that will supply power to thousands of homes. "It's wonderful to see all the Iraqi workers that are here working on a very important project," U.S. Gen. Thomas Bostick (search), who is charged with overseeing reconstruction in all of Iraq, said. "For the city, it's a very powerful message." Fox This message has been edited by Tal, 05-05-2005 07:44 AM Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, "Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?" And I said, "Here am I. Send me!" Isaiah 6:8 No webpage found at provided URL: www.1st-vets.us
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Tal Member (Idle past 5707 days) Posts: 1140 From: Fort Bragg, NC Joined: |
Here is a good site if you would like to keep up with what is going on reconstruction-wise in Iraq.
Rebuilding Iraq.net I would like to highlight. Ongoing Work As of: 5/04/05IRRF Construction Starts: 1,978 AIRP Construction Starts: 355 Total Construction Starts: 2333Work in Place $2.06 Billion # of Iraqi Workers: 40,087 Obligated Funds: $8.64 Billion Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, "Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?" And I said, "Here am I. Send me!" Isaiah 6:8 No webpage found at provided URL: www.1st-vets.us
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contracycle Inactive Member |
You're not answering the question.
Is the money being spent that provided by the US, or by the UN? Can you tell me what proportion of the funds allocated by congress have been spent?
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Tal Member (Idle past 5707 days) Posts: 1140 From: Fort Bragg, NC Joined: |
The US.
I can't find where the UN has spent ANY money on Iraq. They've been good at trying to audit though. So answer your own question. How much has the UN spent? So first, you guys are saying that we haven't spent any money on reconstruction. Now that I show you we have, you suddenly think the UN is funding the whole thing? Tisk. This message has been edited by Tal, 05-05-2005 08:10 AM Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, "Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?" And I said, "Here am I. Send me!" Isaiah 6:8 No webpage found at provided URL: www.1st-vets.us
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Tal Member (Idle past 5707 days) Posts: 1140 From: Fort Bragg, NC Joined: |
Sorry, we didn't break everything. Good generalization though. Do you have any facts on the infrastructure Coalition forces destroyed as opposed to what we've rebuilt? Or just broad, sweeping statments with no substance?
Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, "Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?" And I said, "Here am I. Send me!" Isaiah 6:8 No webpage found at provided URL: www.1st-vets.us
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contracycle Inactive Member |
quote: Lol. Erm, if you REbuilt it, then presumably you destroyed it. "as opposed" is meaningless. And besides, its not as if Iraqi's actually own these reconstructions, mostly American companies own them.
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contracycle Inactive Member |
quote: Man you must be able to get really good weed over there.
quote: No, YOUR GOVERNMENT said that it had NOT been able to spend more than 2% of the congress allocation; but ALSO that it had received reconstruction monies from the UN, and that all of those monies had been spent. I'm trying to find a link on this now, but I posted one before, the last time this matter was discussed.
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contracycle Inactive Member |
Heres one:
quote: More here: US Lacks Records for Iraq Spending Now, above, you specifically mentioned the replacement of the Iraqi currency. Yet here we see, that replacement was not only paid for by Iraq, but also, that there are doubts about the honesty of the contracting. So, this is defintely a case of you claiming credit on behalf of the US for things paid for by Iraqi's themselves.
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Tal Member (Idle past 5707 days) Posts: 1140 From: Fort Bragg, NC Joined: |
July 29, 2004 You'll recall I said in post 97
Now, before you bring up the google news from back in 2004 let me pre-counter them with this: So I already countered your post before you posted it. That tells me you don't really read what I post, you just do a quick google to find anything you can that appears bolster your argument. But I'll repost.
Equation for Iraq: 2,000 Projects = Progress Wednesday, March 16, 2005 STORIES ARCHIVE BACKGROUND LINKS Japan to Release $97 Million in Iraq AidRebuilding IraqCongress OKs WH Plan to Shift Iraq Money BAGHDAD, Iraq Stories of homicide bombers or kidnappers get most of the news headlines out of Iraq (search) but U.S. officials working in the country want Americans to think about other things when they mull the millions of tax dollars spent there. U.S. and Iraqi workers are joining to complete 2,000 projects funded by U.S. taxpayers, which Charlie Hess said is a sign of "good progress ... for their kids." Local Iraqis "want clean water adequate and decent homes, good schools and quality of life, Hess, who is the director of the Project and Contracting Office, said. According to its Web site, the Project and Contracting Office aims to "serve the people of the United States and Iraq by contracting for and delivering services, supplies and infrastructure identified within the Iraqi Relief and Reconstruction Fund, a total $18.4 billion in resources allocated by the U.S. government and taxpaying public for the rebuilding of Iraq." In Baghdad, workers are erecting hospital, and in Kurdistan, Americans and Iraqis have come together to construct a $10 million electricity substation that will supply power to thousands of homes. "It's wonderful to see all the Iraqi workers that are here working on a very important project," U.S. Gen. Thomas Bostick (search), who is charged with overseeing reconstruction in all of Iraq, said. "For the city, it's a very powerful message."
Now, do you have something more recent? And that article you quoted still doesn't say the UN has spent 1 Euro on anything. Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, "Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?" And I said, "Here am I. Send me!" Isaiah 6:8 No webpage found at provided URL: www.1st-vets.us
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