EvC Forum: Is God determined to allow no proof or evidence of his existence? Part II

Faith writes:
But he could have died and been resurrected and NOBODY KNOW A THING ABOUT IT and the purpose would have been accomplished according to the way you and jar talk about it. Salvation in your view does not depend upon anybody's knowing anything about Christ.

Mr. Ex Nihilo writes:
No, that's not what I've said at all. I've said that many can know the concept of Christ and confess their belief in him by the Holy Spirit moving them to do so. Therefore, if salvation is found in a person, it is because Christ is at work in them and saving them.

Are you being wilfully obtuse? Surely you know that I meant CONSCIOUSLY knowing of Christ? Surely you know that I'm saying that "Salvation in your view does not depend upon anybody's [CONSCIOUSLY] knowing anything about Christ?"

And the point still stands. Your view appears to be that nobody needs to CONSCIOUSLY know anything about Christ to be saved. Therefore what point could there possibly be in all of us who do CONSCIOUSLY know of Him, in His message being preached, in all the exhortations to believe in Him?

WITHOUT THEIR KNOWING HIM. By claiming they can know him without knowing anythign about him you are playing semantic tricks.

First of all, as I've said before, the Scriptures do indicate that all people know the word of God even if they do not acknowledge it (or know that Christ is the source).

You quoted the following passage of Scripture as the proof text of your assertion:

How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"
Romans 10:14-15

However, in quoting this text, you completely omitted what Paul says further on. Paul explains this in detail as follows:

But not all the Israelites accepted the good news.
For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our message?"

Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.

But I ask: Did they not hear?

Of course they did:

"Their voice has gone out into all the earth,
their words to the ends of the world."

Again I ask: Did Israel not understand?

First, Moses says,

"I will make you envious by those who are not a nation;
I will make you angry by a nation that has no understanding."

And Isaiah boldly says,

"I was found by those who did not seek me;
I revealed myself to those who did not ask for me."[k]

But concerning Israel he says,

"All day long I have held out my hands
to a disobedient and obstinate people."

Romans 10: 16-21

Let's review what is being said here.

Paul says, "Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ."

Then Paul asks, "Did they not hear?"

To this Paul then asserts that they did hear the message through the word of Christ.

And how does Paul say that they heard the message through the word of Christ?

Paul quotes Psalm 19:4 as a proof text as follows, "Their voice has gone out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world."

In other words, the word of Christ has gone out into all the earth, the words of Christ to the ends of the world -- so there is no excuse for not believing in God just as Paul said before in Romans 1:20

For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualitieshis eternal power and divine naturehave been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

Going back to the entire text of Psalm 19:1-4 (which also follows this exact same reasoning) one can reasonably say that Paul has concluded that:

The heavens declare the word of Christ;
the skies proclaim the word of Christ.
Day after day they pour forth the word of Christ;
night after night they display the word of Christ.

There is no speech or language
where the word of Christ is not heard.

The word of Christ goes out into all the earth,
the word of Christ to the ends of the world.

I've already addressed this passage before and all you said was that I've misunderstood it, or interpretted it improperly, or was perhaps spiritually deluded, or maybe even suffering from demonic possession (as you've alluded before to others who do not agree with you).

Furthermore, the Scriptures do indicate that those that do not know Christ "by name" nonetheless still believe in him by their actions:

For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.)
Romans 2:13-15 (NIV)

You've never actually addressed this passage except to say that these people who are considered righteous will "earn" a less hot place in hell.

~ yay ~

Faith, all that I'm saying is that Christ knows them -- and that this is more important than us knowing Christ.

All the above is irrelevant to the simple point I was making. You are simply continuing to insist that it is possible to be saved without CONSCIOUSLY knowing Christ. My objection to this was that it trivializes the beliefs of those who DO know Christ CONSCIOUSLY, trivializes the preaching of the gospel and the exhortations to believe to be saved.

Faith writes:

Salvation would be given to those who did good works based on his resurrection whether anybody believed or not or knew anything about it.

Mr. Ex Nihilo writes:
And again, you're not understanding what I've said. I'm saying that if salvation is found in them, it is because they do know Christ -- even though they do not know his name.

Honestly I KNOW what you are saying! There has never been any doubt about what you are saying! But you are refusing to acknowledge the obvious distinction between your notion of "knowing" someone without knowing his name and knowing someone by actually knowing his name and the whole gospel message about him. I'm saying that your idea that Christ can be "known" in that unconscious sense trivializes the conscious knowing of the entire Church of Christ back to Abraham.

YES, which is not KNOWING him, just a phony baloney bit of legerdemain.

No. Salvation would be given to anyone that the Spirit revealed would have believed if the message had been properly given to them.

I think this is a whole separate subject at the moment. Whether this is the same as "knowing" him is a question, even if it were to be acknowledged that God could certainly act on this if He chose to, and I'd also add that in this case we wouldn't ever be able to know if he would do such a thing. But that is not the point I was trying to make that I assumed you'd be answering here which I've stated a couple times above and will now restate:

This focus on people's "knowing" Christ without knowing they know him appears to trivilize the conscious knowing of Christ by the whole Church through the centuries. You have not yet said a word about this.

I am going to skip most of your discussion of this same point about how people may supposedly know Christ without knowing they know him and see if you answer my point anywhere:

Faith writes:
My point is that BY YOUR STANDARDS there is no point in ANYBODY's EVER knowing what the Bible says about Christ, no need to preach it, no need even to mention him, no need for it to have been taken notice of by anyone at all that He died and resurrected.

That's not true. And I've already explained why this wasn't true. By my standards Christ is the Savior and our knowledge of him when lovingly moved by the Spirit is a guarantee to salvation.

This is a nonanswer. If people can be saved without having this knowledge there is no point in having it and what you are saying here doesn't provide one.

Others, however, know what the truth is but do not realize where the truth comes from. As they grope about in the darkness, they can easilly get discouraged by their inability to find the source of their truth. They can become led astray by seducing spirits because they have no sure word of the Scriptures to compare the truth of God's record. I've never denied that the Scriptures are the most sure word of God's revelation to man.

This is, it seems to me, a distinction without a distinction as they say.

Then you go on about how those who have heard the gospel have more responsibility and are the more damnable for refusing it and I agree with this.

I also believe that there will be another literal anti-christ who will come to deceive and to persecute Christians and he will present himself as a Christian. Jsut to get that said.

But if people can be saved by Christ without ever knowing any of this about Christ there is no reason for anybody to know it at all. There is no special advantage for those who know it. Might as well not bother if we'll be saved or damned with or without knowing it.

First of all, there are plenty of special advantages to being a Christian.

Here's a few that are mentioned in the Scriptures:

Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.

More importantly, we are permanently indwelled by the Holy Spirit as Christians -- so long as we are alive. This is much different from others who are simply buffetted around between the motions of the Holy Spirit and the spirit of the adversary, the flesh and the world. While God can certainly work through someone who does not know him, it is no guarantee that salvation is inherrited by this. God could measure their lives at the end of human history and still save them based on their willingness to be moved by the Spirit, but non-believers are not necessarilly atracted to the motions of the Spirit.

I get your point better now, about the advantage to knowing Christ through the gospel, though I doubt that there is anyone alive who would qualify on the idea of knowing him without knowing they know him. I think a conscious sense of the need for sacrifice and a faith in God however vague and a contrition for sin are fundamental, as exemplified by Job and Noah for instance. They would certainly be saved but I don't see this in any existing religions now. The tendency is to be given works to earn one's salvation but where is repentance, contrition, or sacrifice any part of it? In any case, even if it is possible that something like this could occur, there is no way of knowing for sure that it will for anyone living, and I don't understand your concern to emphasize it. Our job is to preach the gospel no matter what, not assure people that there's a way to be saved without it.

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