What Science is NOT

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Originally posted by Chara:
Or my interpretation of the results may be flawed. Perhaps I have an incorrect understanding of the prediction, or maybe I don't have the information I need. I must be careful not to jump to conclusions based on my presuppositions.

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The predictions have to be precise and detailed or they are worthless------------------
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Originally posted by funkmasterfreaky:
okay so prophesies being fulfilled are not acceptable.

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Prophecies are acceptable. If I told you that someone would die of a gunshot wound next week, you wouldn't consider me a prophet. The prophecy is too vague. If I cited names, times and places, it would be a different story. If I told you that I had predicted a murder and that the proof is that I said so in a book I wrote well after the murder, you would not consider me a prophet. These are reasonable conditions.

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how about archeologial evidence.

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Acceptable, most certainly.

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if something is described in detail in the bible and then discovered by a scientist with a shovel does that not give some credibility to the bible.

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It gives verification of that particular story. It does not mean that the Bible as a whole is accurate. These are the same conditions applied to any other ancient documents, so don't whine about it.I am aware of some cases where archeology has corraborated some portion of a Bible story. The names of cities are mentioned, the names of rivers, even people. What you fail to realize is that the Isrealites would have had to have been complete idiots to have lived for generations in the region and not get some things right.What is peculiar is that they got so much wrong.You need archeological evidence for the major stories in the Bible-- the captivity in Egypt, the plagues of Egypt, the kingdoms of Solomon and David (as described in the Bible)------------------
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Originally posted by Chara:

Would this prophecy qualify? It is detailed and precise. The city is called by name and there are specifics about its ultimate fate.

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Well, you are on the right track. However, I did some checking.Did you notice in the prophecy that Tyre shall be destroyed and never rebuilt? Well, it was sieged repeatedly and rebuilt. So much for that prophecy, eh?Secondly, Tyre was rich and powerful for a reason. It was located on a prime spot and had been repeatedly seiged for centuries. It is a no-brainer that it was going to be sieged again.Third, the prophecy was a couple of hundred years before the 'fall' Pick any major trade city of the time and and bet on a siege in the next two hundred years. The odds are for it. Tyre
another discusion of this very topic

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Originally posted by forgiven:
the present discussion, can the bible be proven to be the word of God, probably can never be proven by this methodology... why? because, as the bible says (paraphrasing here), those who don't want to see (use inductive and/or deductive logic) won't see... they "hide the truth" from themselves... this means that the logic steps might be left out or denied...

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Well, no wonder you didn't notice Funkie's condescending attitude.

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if the simplest explanation which accounts for all the facts is usually the right one, how can anyone deny the existence of a creator?

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Christians tend to take the superficial view of Occam's razor. "Well, God did it is the simplest explanation" Wrong. God did it is no more explanation than "Aliens did it"------------------
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Originally posted by Chara:
Obviously, Ezekiel's prophecy would have been laughed at. If he had been trying to "make up" a prophecy, he probably would not have chosen Tyre (speculation tho' logical).

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Sorry but no. Tyre had already been seiged taken lost regained for centuries. You are not paying attention.

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Note that the prophecy says that many nations, not just Babylon will come against the city.

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Note that pretty much anyone alive near Tyre at the time would know this, since many nations had been coming for it for centuries.

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So, get this, the bridge that Alex built is the one that Zeke predicted .... "they will destroy the walls and break down her towers; and I will scrape her debris from her and make her a bare rock."

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Where do you see a bridge in there?

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Remember, I said that Zeke predicted that many nations would come against Tyre?

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And remember how this very thing had already been happening for centuries?

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Zeke's prophecy was so precise he predicted the future use of Tyre ... a place for spreading nets.

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Yes, Tyre and every other fishing village on the planet.

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How can all this be explained? How could Zeke have made such an impressive prediction? Was he just really lucky?

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It isn't luck. He hasn't said anything unusual.------------------
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Originally posted by forgiven:
but it's one of those that doubters (john appears to be such) will be able to point to and say, "yeah well maybe it's that way *now* but that doesn't mean it won't be rebuilt and destroyed many more times"

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Doubter? I am asking for the same evidence you would request, if for example, someone told you that John Edward revealed some startling information on late night TV.And you've got that wrong. Tyre is still with us. Prophecy failed, unless of course you want to claim that it may be here *now* but that doesn't mean it won't be destroyed and rebuilt many more times.

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cause then someone would just do what i wrote above, abandon induction leading to deduction and say "it hasn't been rebuilt *yet*"

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What? Abandon induction leading to deduction?

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see, if a person is intent on disbelieving a thing, that thing will be disbelieved...

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It works much better in reverse actually.

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keeping an open mind and allowing our (dare i say God-given?) reasoning ability to function is the key...

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Does this involve dismissing the 'doubters'?------------------
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Originally posted by funkmasterfreaky:
that's only one part of the prophesy Mark . down to detail i think is what chara was getting at. the fact that it was scraped off the earth into the sea is pretty impressive.

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Funkie darling,This is pretty common practise for the time. Captured cities could very well end up destroyed. And dumping the debris into the sea adds a bit of flair but that's about it. You can't make a very convincing case for prophecy with prophecies that predict stuff that stands a good chance of occurring. Tyre was constantly at war, and was eventually going to lose and lose badly.But remember, Tyre wasn't ever supposed to come back. And it did-- repeatedly.------------------
http://www.hells-handmaiden.com[This message has been edited by John, 11-13-2002]

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Originally posted by Quetzal:
Sorry to jump in here.

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I'll let it slide this time

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Tyre is supposed to have been destroyed and abandoned at some point?

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The issue under discussion is a prophecy made by Ezekial about the destruction of Tyre. So, yes, you are reading it right. Ezekial predicted the destruction of the city. It is all very melodramatic. This, as you point out, hasn't happened. Maybe we should give it a few years.

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Tyre was originally founded around the 13th century BCE, and the city has been under continuous occupation to the present day. It's been conquered and reconquered, destroyed and rebuilt literally dozens of times. It's mentioned quite importantly in the Alexandrian conquests (as someone said), but also the Seljuk conquest, the Fatimid wars, the Crusades (last controlled by Godfrey), the Mongol invasion, the Byzantine Empire, the Ottoman conquest, etc, and even modern Lebanese history. There is currently a city in Lebanon - still using the ancient harbor - by the same name. Is this the same city you're talking about? If not, where was the "biblical" Tyre in relation to the historical city?

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As far as I can tell this is the same city. What is ironic is that the NT mentions Tyre as a functioning community, thereby rubbing salt in old Ezekial's prophetic wounds.Sorry for the digression - after all, there could be more than one city by that name. However, I find it difficult to believe there was more than one important city/city-state in the same region by the same name. Inquiring minds want to know. [/B][/QUOTE]------------------
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Originally posted by funkmasterfreaky:
Okay you didn't like that prophesy. At least john's starting to like me i noticed. lol.

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kissie kissie...

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It would appear tyre was not the only city to be prophesied angainst and be destroyed.....

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Look at the dates. The earliest copy-- well, not even that but merely fragments-- of Ezekiel is from the Qumram caves circa 100 bc. The events spoken of had already happened. Now if I had a book written today that 'predicted' events that happened two to five hundred years in the past, would anyone take it seriously? Even if the book claimed to not be the original but a copy of a much older work?------------------
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Originally posted by forgiven:
ok, someone here (maybe me) seems confused... the island city of tyre is at issue here, not the mainland city...

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Why are we making this distinction? Ezekiel doesn't, not that I can tell.

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so the question is, what sits where the island city of tyre used to sit?

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This is not the question unless you can demonstrate a good reason for making the distinction.------------------
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Originally posted by mark24:
The mainland town was known as Ushu (or Ussu) from Egyptian, Greek, & Assyrian texts, but eventually became a suburb of Tyre proper (the island). Ezekiel, if he made a distinction, would have made a prophecy regarding Ushu, not Tyre, if he had specifically meant the mainland town.

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Got any references? I haven't ran across this bit.I did run across a spiffy picture of the barren rock of modern Tyre. No webpage found at provided URL: http://www.kadado.com/media/pics/lebanon/tyre/tyre_from_the_air.jpg------------------
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Originally posted by mark24:
John,

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Do a search with "Ushu Tyre". I didn't go much beyond discovering this (today ) myself.

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Mark

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How is this for irony, God apologizing to Neb. because Tyre DID NOT fall.

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In the twenty-seventh year, in the first month, on the first day of the month, the word of the LORD came to me: Mortal, King Nebuchadrezzar of Babylon made his army labor hard against Tyre; every head was made bald and every shoulder was rubbed bare; yet neither he nor his army got anything from Tyre to pay for the labor that he had expended against it. Therefore thus says the Lord GOD: I will give the land of Egypt to King Nebuchadrezzar of Babylon; and he shall carry off its wealth and despoil it and plunder it; and it shall be the wages for his army. I have given him the land of Egypt as his payment for which he labored, because they worked for me, says the Lord GOD (Ezek. 29:17-20).

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Also notice that Neb did in fact take the mainland city. Since the passage states that Neb got nothing for his efforts we must conclude that the original prophecy concerned the island, thus settled the island vs. mainland issue.------------------
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Originally posted by Chara:
Obviously, the fact that there is some kind of population on Tyre shows that the prophecy of Ezekiel is not completely fulfilled.

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Convenient but technically unassailable, except on the grounds that it makes the position tautological. It is true no matter what, by design. Hardly convincing.

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Does this shatter my belief that the Bible is the Word of God?

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I didn't expect it to destroy oyur faith. I hope it as least shakes your faith in those hundreds of apologists spreading this story on the web and elsewhere. I found hundreds of such sites. I assume you did too, in the course of this discusion.To Funkie: How can one spread false information such as the story of the barren-rock-o-tyre and not know that it is false? It is a currently occupied city. How hard can that be to verify? Now, see what I meant when I said that apologists tend to disregard fact?------------------
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Chara:
[B][QUOTE]Originally posted by John:Convenient but technically unassailable, except on the grounds that it makes the position tautological. It is true no matter what, by design. Hardly convincing.[/b][/quote]I'm sorry John, but I didn't understand this statement. Can you simplify it for me?[/B][/QUOTE]Your statement that the prophecy hasn't been fullfilled yet makes the prophecy tautological. That is, true by definition. 1=1 and 2=2 are tautologies. You can't argue against them, but at the same time they really don't mean much. In other words, the prophecy is insulated from reality. Tyre could grow to be a megapolis occupying the whole planet yet that fact would not damage the prophecy.I could say that eventually I will be crowned King of the United States and simply dismiss criticism with "Wait and see. Eventually it will happen." I doubt anyone would take me seriously, but that is very much the position taken when you say that "well, it just hasn't been fulfilled YET."------------------
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Originally posted by Chara:

I think you read something into my statement that wasn't there .... I said that the prophecy had not been completely fulfilled. There is no "yet" there. I think you expected me to say "yet". I promised that I would not bring that "argument" to this thread.

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Well, that being the case, sorry. The phrase 'had not been completely fullfulled' implies to me a holdout, but I guess I misunderstood.------------------
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