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Author | Topic: SIMPLE common anscestors had fewer but MORE COMPLEX systems: genomics | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Mammuthus Member (Idle past 6504 days) Posts: 3085 From: Munich, Germany Joined: |
FW:
It is obvious you do not know what realize means, and it has led you to erect a strawman. You guys are on a role on this board with these assemblages of straw. I also did not say dog diversity was fully realized via breeding (which I pointed out emulates bottlenecks). In fact I completely agree with your sentence above (beginning at they remain, of course). M: It is obvious that you are so profoundly ignorant of population genetics and science in general that you have to make up meaningless terms like "realize" genetic potential via bottlenecks....and from the rest of your post on this subject it is also clear you don't know the difference between a genetic bottleneck and a founder event....you should be a standup comedian Fred...you are a laugher...
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Quetzal Member (Idle past 5901 days) Posts: 3228 Joined: |
quote: Never said it, hunh? How about this bit here, then? quote: Sure looks like you're claiming bottlenecks cause/create/whatever diversity. Those are your words, right? If you didn't mean them, you should have been more clear. No, I have no clue what you're babbling about concerning "realized" diversity. If it made any sense, I wouldn't ask you to clarify what you meant, now would I? From your non-response, it's pretty apparent you don't have any idea what it means either.
quote: Besides the obvious error on the number of bat species (like by an order of magnitude), allopatric speciation IS one of the principal - albeit not the only - way speciation occurs. And duh, of course it's a man-made term. All the taxonomic classifications are, and most are pretty ambiguous to boot. What was the point of this utter and trivial irrelevancy again?
quote: This is almost too silly for words. Okay, tell me again your rationale for excluding insects, plants, fresh-water fish, etc from your "kinds"? List, for example, all the terrestrial plants that are capable of surviving one full year's immersion in salt water. List, for example, all of the species of phytophagous insects that are capable of surviving without their host plants for twelve months. While you're at it, explain how - with all the violent to-and-fro surging, 40 days of rain, literally mountains of sediment being deposited all over the planet simultaneously, submarine volcanos or whatever you're now calling the "fountains of the deep", massive uplift and subsidence of sea floor, etc how ANY marine creature could possibly have survived. This ought to be rich. Someone already covered the huge volume of extinct critters that would have had to be accommodated on the ark, like litopterns, giant ground sloths, cameliids, all the extinct perissodactyls, early artiodactyls, etc. And that's just the mammals! You've left out a LOT of critters. In other words, Fred, justify your numbers. [This message has been edited by Quetzal, 11-22-2002]
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derwood Member (Idle past 1905 days) Posts: 1457 Joined: |
quote: I have the paper in my hand.quote: Like I said, there is no such figure anywhere in the paper (150,000 kyr ancestor). It goes undiscussed, apparently, because it s not in existence. I submit, Borger, that you simply do not know how to interpret the tree. In fact, and I suggest you actually look at it for comprehension THIS TIME, in the tree humans branch first from Neanderthals, THEN the great apes. There is no time scale given at all, so your 150,000 bit seems completely fabricated. The scale bar in that figure is for branch length changes, not time.quote: Pardon my language, but Borger, you are so full of shit that I have a hard time forcing myself to read your incoherent creationist claptrap anymore. I understand full well that you simply do not know how to understand raw data. Your treatment of the alignment I linked to demonstrated that nicely - your naive, unsupported assertions were comically inept, to say the least. You and WIlliams are a wonferful pair. Again - Borger has totally made up this common ancestor of chimps and humans at 150,000 years nonsense. The paper that HE cited does not contain the "facts" he claims - and still is claiming, apparently - are in it. I therefore consider Borger to be a charlatan, and no longer worth wasting time on. He is incompetent, dishonest, and clearly quite ignorant of the very topics he brings up. Good day to you Borger - I sincerely hope the output in your ACTUAL area of research is not plagued with such incompetentce and dishonesty.
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derwood Member (Idle past 1905 days) Posts: 1457 Joined: |
FW:Why do you have trouble with this? Taking in too much of Page's canned rhetoric?
[b]Canned rhetoric? Is that like saying that you want observed instances of evolution, lest it must be false, then IGNORING requests for observed evidence for the YEC cult beliefs? Your projection is starting to exceed your pseudocertainty. Everyone, Fred, EVERYONE can see that you toss out ad hoc nonsense, just-so stories, and repeated assertions as your 'evidence.' And EVERYONE can see that you IGNORE requests for ACTUAL evidence. You and Borger... Put Rowan and Martin to shame... Oh - still waiting for observed occurrances of information arising supernaturally.
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derwood Member (Idle past 1905 days) Posts: 1457 Joined: |
FW:We are not required to account for all the species of algae, fungi, insects, fish, mollusks, etc. (note that there are almost a million catalogued species of insects/spiders!).
[b]Well, if some of those things were not on the ark, how did they survive? Surely you do not think that freshwater molluscs and plants could have survived for more than a yewar in salt water? Insects? How did they survive? The creationist has to go way extra-biblical to try to amke sense of the bible. Look at Woodmorappe and his pelletized food and animals trained to poop into buckets on command...
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Fred Williams Member (Idle past 4885 days) Posts: 310 From: Broomfield Joined: |
quote: No. I can’t keep repeating myself. Please go back and read what I wrote.
quote: It seems this way to you because you were unable to follow the discussion.
quote: Huh? I stated that the cheetah has less genetic information than its pre-bottleneck parent species. Why is this so hard to understand? This is a simple, straightforward statement.
quote: The cheetah is a cat kind. A branch of this cat kind became isolated. This resulted in the CHEETAH. The cheetah has LESS information than its parent, pre-bottleneck cat kind. I already provided a citation from a CHEETAH expert who agrees it is likely the cheetah has lost gene segments. Lions and Tigers also share a common cat kind ancestor. Each likely has less information than their common ancestor cat kind. Savvy?
quote: No, what I wish is that you would follow the discussion. I do not know of a single evolutionist trained in info science who thinks the appearance of a new allele necessarily represents new information. Yet this is what you keep claiming, because you cannot get it through your thick skull. Find me ONE evolutionist who has a background in info science who thinks a new allele always equals new information. If this is true, then DISEASE = new information by this standard. Utter nonsense.
quote: The problem is, your blinders are on so tight you deny that 1+1=2. Let me lay it on the line: You have to be a complete moron to believe deterioration = new information. You would give flat-earthers a good name.
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Fred Williams Member (Idle past 4885 days) Posts: 310 From: Broomfield Joined: |
quote: ROTFL! Yet another Page hairsplit. I can just hear you going na na na na na, na. Scott, you are showing your desperation again to latch on to such trivialness. Not being a bat expert, I qualified my number with at least and over because it was based on what little I scrounged up on the internet. It didn’t matter how high the number was, the fact it was at least 32 served my point well. I am glad that Randy provided the right number. It aided my point even more, and by golly I lernt seomthin. What you refuse to acknowledge is the huge disparity between 23K and 5-50M. Quetzal’s argument was based on a flawed assumption that was several orders of magnitude off, yet you remain true to form and still defend it. You go guy! Loyalty to the cause at all costs!
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Fred Williams Member (Idle past 4885 days) Posts: 310 From: Broomfield Joined: |
I believe Mams has blown a gasket. I'd recommend pursuing immediate medical attention!
Regarding founder vs bottleneck, I know the difference. In a sense a small founder population is really no different than a bottleneck. DO you deny this? If so, please educate me, oh wise one.
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Fred Williams Member (Idle past 4885 days) Posts: 310 From: Broomfield Joined: |
quote: Hence why I followed-up with the top paragraph. I thought it was clear as a whistle. Even the emphasized sentence you quoted should have been clear. It is simply true that bottlenecks and subsequent drift help us SEE the diversity. It does not create the diversity, it helps us SEE it. Realize, see, all words with solid definitions. I am not the one having grammar problems here. You too appear to be equivocating/hairsplitting. But I’m used to it. I really in a sense don’t blame you. If the point you are defending is specious, well
quote: Oh please. Like I said, hairsplit... but I didn't expect this specific hairsplit from you. See my comments to Page, who appears to be a bad influence on some of you. Do you want provocative, reasonable debate, or silly nonsense?
quote: This is your way of avoiding the fact you were orders of magnitude off? The Bible did not require insects, plants, fresh-water fish, etc. Your argument was based on what the Bible required on the ark. How these non-ark organisms survived outside the ark is another debate. Such is a fair question, and a good discussion, that has been discussed many times. The point is, it’s another topic. Your original claim requiring the ark to somehow accommodate the originators of 10 million species was a fallacious argument that needs to be put to rest.
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derwood Member (Idle past 1905 days) Posts: 1457 Joined: |
quote: "Hairsplit"? You said - what was it - 32 species? There are ove 900. That you consider that a 'hairsplit' is indicative of your self-delusion.quote: No, I am going "That Williams, what an ignornat punk." Thats what I am 'going.'quote: Yes, trivialness. I guess the fact that you have been ignoring my other posts is just a'trivial' oversight on your behalf. Though I must say that your blow-off of the latest in a long line of "directed mutation" debunkers was not only predicted, but was comically shallow, to boot. Trivial, indeed.quote: LOL! Damn, the equivocation and desperate face-saving attempt from the cretin is incredible.. Amazing.... "At least"... Yes, the earth is "at least" 500 miles around. Whats that? it is 24,000 miles around? Oh, please stop the hairsplitting! What a friggin joke, the cretin intellect is.quote: Funny, I do not recall commenting on anything Quetzal wrote. Please show where I did. However, your numbers seem fairly arbitrary and, frankly, made up. Your link didn't help you any, since there is no evidene of an Ark of any sort to begin with; no evidence for 'original kinds'; none for 'original kinds' producing all sorts of new species in short time periods via losing information; no evidence for how all of the alleles that must have been present in these superkinds went unexprtessed; etc. etc. Your house of cards was blown down by a hurricane years ago, but you still keep claiming that it is an impenetrable fortress... Of course, the projection is again palpable: "Loyalty to the cause at all costs" Indeed -"Here Peter, smoochie smoochie." "Oh, your MPG is so keen, why it gives me an erection. I will ignore that it runs counter to YECism cult beliefs, because it is anti-evo..." Oh brother... Still waiting for the lab reports showing 'new information' being created ex nihilo via supernatural means. Still waiting for the lab observations of original kinds producing a multitude of species in short times. Still waiting .... [This message has been edited by SLPx, 11-22-2002]
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derwood Member (Idle past 1905 days) Posts: 1457 Joined: |
quote: Apparewntly, as we are replying to YOUR posts, we all want silly nonsense, which is all one gets from creationists pontificating on areas that they have no knowledge in, as demonstrated by their inability to substantively support their many dubious and often patently ridiculous claims.
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derwood Member (Idle past 1905 days) Posts: 1457 Joined: |
quote: As the veracity of the bible is in question, it would behoove you to supply some evidence that does not rely upon millenia old plagiarised fairy tales. So, if the bible does not 'require' these other creatures, please tell us where in the bible these other things are accounted for. If there is no biblical passage that states something like "The Lord God, being a malevolent but whimsical God, magically protected all creatures not on the ark from the turmoil and hardships that He had created for them." if there is nothing liek that, then you will have to do better than blabbering on about the bible "not requiring it" and dropping it as if it were irrelevant.quote: And no doubt hand-waved and ad hoc'd away...quote: As is the ark myth itself.
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Randy Member (Idle past 6276 days) Posts: 420 From: Cincinnati OH USA Joined: |
quote: So the Bible does not require insects on the ark? It doesn’t seem that way to me. Here are the verses in Genesis. 7:21 And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man: 7:22 All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died. 7:23 And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark. 8:1 And God remembered Noah, and every living thing, and all the cattle that was with him in the ark: and God made a wind to pass over the earth, and the waters asswaged; 8:17 Bring forth with thee every living thing that is with thee, of all flesh, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth; that they may breed abundantly in the earth, and be fruitful, and multiply upon the earth. Now it does say in 7:22 all in whose nostrils was the breath of life so the modern YEC apologists use this to claim that insects and other invertebrates that don’t breath through nostril did not have to be on the ark. However it does not say that ONLY those who breathe through nostril died and it more than once says every living thing and every creeping thing died . If insects were not thought to be living or need air this would seem a pretty big blunder in the supposedly inerrant Bible even if they don’t have nostrils. If insects are not among creeping things then why are grasshoppers identified in Leviticus as flying creeping things ye may eat? I suppose those questions belong on the Bible inerrancy page but I have made the point before that many families and even some whole orders of insects could not have survived on or off the ark and it has not been discussed much here. http://EvC Forum: Insect diversity falsifies the worldwide flood. -->EvC Forum: Insect diversity falsifies the worldwide flood. I do recall KC (on OCW) saying that the flood could have collected a forest along with its dirt to preserve ground dwelling insects. That was pretty far out even for KC. Many species of fresh water fish and many plants are also big problems as well. Why don’t YECs do the experiment of soaking a wide variety of plant seed in salty water for a year and then throwing them out on ground that had been under salt water to see if they grow? I think I know why. Do you? Randy
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Mammuthus Member (Idle past 6504 days) Posts: 3085 From: Munich, Germany Joined: |
FW:
The cheetah is a cat kind. A branch of this cat kind became isolated. This resulted in the CHEETAH. The cheetah has LESS information than its parent, pre-bottleneck cat kind. I already provided a citation from a CHEETAH expert who agrees it is likely the cheetah has lost gene segments. Lions and Tigers also share a common cat kind ancestor. Each likely has less information than their common ancestor cat kind. Savvy? M: Oh so the cheetah is a cat kind? And what are the cheetah's post the bottleneck they suffered? Answer for the learning impaired aka Fred..cheetah's Your argument is really stupid. FW:No, what I wish is that you would follow the discussion. I do not know of a single evolutionist trained in info science who thinks the appearance of a new allele necessarily represents new information. Yet this is what you keep claiming, because you cannot get it through your thick skull. Find me ONE evolutionist who has a background in info science who thinks a new allele always equals new information. If this is true, then DISEASE = new information by this standard. Utter nonsense. M: LOL! HIV and other retroviruses integrate into the host genome...some of these elements as retrotransposons can take over functions of (syncytin), delete, or modify gene expression..so the utter nonesense is 100% of the posts you have written on this board.
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Mammuthus Member (Idle past 6504 days) Posts: 3085 From: Munich, Germany Joined: |
quote: M: At least I have gaskets that can be blown out...you apparently lack any thinking mechanisms And you managed to yet again, not answer anything from the post.... And as to the founder population versus genetic bottleneck...they are different though I will grant you..similar. However, a founder event would be more as you incorrectly tried to illustrate with dogs and decks of cards etc. The original population is still in existence...new species eventually forms from the founders..both species (original population and new species) exist...a bottleneck like the cheetah experienced, the entire population collapses...there is no other population and no genetic diversity anywhere else because the population has crashed to a remnant...get it? I doubt it. In both cases, allelic variation is lost..in the founder event by drift and by severe bottlenecks for obvious reasons....but I am sure you read all this in the papers I cited on bottlenecks since you have shown such a propensity to read the scientific literature LOL!
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