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Author Topic:   Bible: Not literally true
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 1 of 10 (249526)
10-06-2005 12:42 PM


The Times & The Sunday Times
The Catholic Church have clarified their position, which is of interest to the EvC debate:
Catholic Chuch writes:
“We should not expect to find in Scripture full scientific accuracy or complete historical precision,”
This comes on the 40th anniversary of DEI VERBUM which discusses revelation:
Dei Verbum writes:
However, since God speaks in Sacred Scripture through men in human fashion, (6) the interpreter of Sacred Scripture, in order to see clearly what God wanted to communicate to us, should carefully investigate what meaning the sacred writers really intended, and what God wanted to manifest by means of their words.
To search out the intention of the sacred writers, attention should be given, among other things, to "literary forms." For truth is set forth and expressed differently in texts which are variously historical, prophetic, poetic, or of other forms of discourse. The interpreter must investigate what meaning the sacred writer intended to express and actually expressed in particular circumstances by using contemporary literary forms in accordance with the situation of his own time and culture.
(7) For the correct understanding of what the sacred author wanted to assert, due attention must be paid to the customary and characteristic styles of feeling, speaking and narrating which prevailed at the time of the sacred writer, and to the patterns men normally employed at that period in their everyday dealings with one another. (8)
refs:
6. St. Augustine, "City of God," XVII, 6, 2: PL 41, 537: CSEL. XL, 2, 228.
7. St. Augustine, "On Christian Doctrine" III, 18, 26; PL 34, 75-76.
8. Pius XII, loc. cit. Denziger 2294 (3829-3830); EB 557-562.

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by iano, posted 10-07-2005 12:05 PM Modulous has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1969 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 2 of 10 (249782)
10-07-2005 12:05 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Modulous
10-06-2005 12:42 PM


Modulous writes:
The Catholic Church have clarified their position, which is of interest to the EvC debate(insofar as concerns Roman Catholics)
May I modify the end of your sentence as enclosed between brackets above
the article writes:
"the document shows how far the Catholic Church has come since the 17th century, when Galileo was condemned as a heretic for flouting a near-universal belief in the divine inspiration of the Bible...."
I'm not a particular fan of the RC church but this is just standard secularist fare "how far the Catholic Church has come". How has the author figured out that the church needs to come from anywhere, I wonder. What measure is he/she using in order to know?
"They go on to condemn fundamentalism for its “intransigent intolerance” and to warn of “significant dangers” involved in a fundamentalist approach".
Intransigent meaning that God doesn't change, his gospel doesn't change, man doesn't change. So why use fundemental as a dirty word? Whats there to change? The requirement I think is to interpret it correctly, not interpret to suit the current fashion and trends
"Such an approach is dangerous, for example, when people of one nation or group see in the Bible a mandate for their own superiority..."
RC sees itself as the superior authority of the faith. The current Pope refers to Protestants for example as "ecclesial communities" - not part of "the church of Christ". Touch of the old kettle/pot here...
RC is entitled to think the bible isn't literally true if it likes. Each to their own I guess.

"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Modulous, posted 10-06-2005 12:42 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Modulous, posted 10-07-2005 12:22 PM iano has replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 3 of 10 (249789)
10-07-2005 12:22 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by iano
10-07-2005 12:05 PM


Sure
May I modify the end of your sentence as enclosed between brackets above
Sure, if it pleases you. I didn't think it was needed, but it doesn't take anything away by adding it so knock yourself out
I'm not a particular fan of the RC church but this is just standard secularist fare "how far the Catholic Church has come". How has the author figured out that the church needs to come from anywhere, I wonder. What measure is he/she using in order to know?
7
If you like. I didn't read it that way, I read it as 'the RC church has shifted its emphasis/philosophy/dogma etc a long way since its inception, but most notably since the 17th Century.' I didn't read some kind of measured progress towards some goal into it, just that the position of the RC Church has shifted. Its not just a language reserved for religious bodies, we could say the same for political bodies. For example "The Monarchy of England has come a long way since the 16th Century".
Intransigent meaning that God doesn't change, his gospel doesn't change, man doesn't change.
"Intransigent intolerance" means that the intolerance doesn't change.
RC sees itself as the superior authority of the faith. The current Pope refers to Protestants for example as "ecclesial communities" - not part of "the church of Christ". Touch of the old kettle/pot here..
The RC church is hypocritical? You're preaching to the choir here.
RC is entitled to think the bible isn't literally true if it likes. Each to their own I guess.
A simplification, but not a bad one. RC thinks that that some books, in the collection of books known as The Holy Bible should not be read literally. Instead the style of the book should be taken into consideration. In their opinion Genesis is not stylistically consistent with literal Gospel.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by iano, posted 10-07-2005 12:05 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by jar, posted 10-07-2005 12:30 PM Modulous has replied
 Message 8 by iano, posted 10-07-2005 12:55 PM Modulous has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 423 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 4 of 10 (249793)
10-07-2005 12:30 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Modulous
10-07-2005 12:22 PM


Re: Sure
Would it be more accurate to say that the RC Church sees the Bible as a Theological work and not a science or history text?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Modulous, posted 10-07-2005 12:22 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by Modulous, posted 10-07-2005 12:31 PM jar has not replied
 Message 6 by iano, posted 10-07-2005 12:40 PM jar has not replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 5 of 10 (249795)
10-07-2005 12:31 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by jar
10-07-2005 12:30 PM


Re: Sure
That sounds like a good way of putting it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by jar, posted 10-07-2005 12:30 PM jar has not replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1969 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 6 of 10 (249801)
10-07-2005 12:40 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by jar
10-07-2005 12:30 PM


Re: Sure
I agree too. Hey Jar, break out the champers. A first!!

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 Message 4 by jar, posted 10-07-2005 12:30 PM jar has not replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4988 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 7 of 10 (249803)
10-07-2005 12:47 PM


Old News
.
This message has been edited by Brian, 10-13-2005 02:54 AM

Replies to this message:
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iano
Member (Idle past 1969 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 8 of 10 (249808)
10-07-2005 12:55 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Modulous
10-07-2005 12:22 PM


Re: Sure
mod writes:
For example "The Monarchy of England has come a long way since the 16th Century".
I took it as meaning, it had evolved upwards. There was an article in the Irish Times a couple of days ago where the Religious affairs correspondent wrote a fairly critical piece on what the reign of the current pope was going to be like: basically a battening down of the hatches towards 'modernising' RC. The columnist suggested that no movement on celibacy, women priests, a softening on its intolerance position on homosexuality was to be regretted.
I'm not commenting on the rights/wrongs of the RC stance but to suggest that the church needs to move with the times is laden with problems. If for example the biblical position on celibacy was established then that's it. It can't change because it seems unreasonable in "this day and age"
"Intransigent intolerance" means that the intolerance doesn't change.
There are plenty of things in the bible which folk wouldn't like. It cramps their style. It's just their style versus God's style. God wins - whether we like it or not. Calling it intolerance (although I decry non-biblical lunatic-fringe cruelty) makes no difference to anything ultimately
A simplification, but not a bad one. RC thinks that that some books, in the collection of books known as The Holy Bible should not be read literally. Instead the style of the book should be taken into consideration. In their opinion Genesis is not stylistically consistent with literal Gospel.
The only trouble is that the authority for deciding this rests with the RC church.
"How do you decide which bit is which?"
"We do."
"How do you know this?"
"We don't - but we have the authority."
"Where did you get the authority?"
"The bible tells us so"
A clear case of circular reasoning?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Modulous, posted 10-07-2005 12:22 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Modulous, posted 10-07-2005 1:15 PM iano has not replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 9 of 10 (249820)
10-07-2005 1:15 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by iano
10-07-2005 12:55 PM


Re: Sure
If for example the biblical position on celibacy was established then that's it. It can't change because it seems unreasonable in "this day and age"
What if the Church believes that it was wrong? Should it just stick to its guns, regardless? Earth is centre of the solar system and all that? That sounds like intransigence to me.
There are plenty of things in the bible which folk wouldn't like. It cramps their style. It's just their style versus God's style. God wins - whether we like it or not. Calling it intolerance (although I decry non-biblical lunatic-fringe cruelty) makes no difference to anything ultimately
Indeed. However, that doesn't change the fact that we should criticize fundamentalists who show "Intransigent intolerance". Those who aren't content with merely believing their version to be true, but who are intolerant of contrary opinions.
The only trouble is that the authority for deciding this rests with the RC church.
I don't see the problem. The RC Church is the appropriate authority for deciding what the RC Church considers the correct interpretation isn't it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by iano, posted 10-07-2005 12:55 PM iano has not replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 10 of 10 (249823)
10-07-2005 1:16 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Brian
10-07-2005 12:47 PM


Re: Old News
It may be old news that the RC has never taken the Bible literally, but it is new news that they have clarified their position on it on the 40th anniversary of Dei Verbum.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Brian, posted 10-07-2005 12:47 PM Brian has not replied

  
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